Scroll up to my previous post. I have 7.3. not 7.0

Right here:

NateW:

Mac Pro Quad-Core Intel Xeon,

3 Gig RAM

Mac OS 10.4.11

AXP 5.8

QT 7.0

Could you tell us what  the problem is please?

Sorry...that was a typo on may part.

I do indeed currently have 7.3 not 7.0.

A couple weeks ago and inadvertantly upgraded to 7.3.1, wiped that out last week, and went back to 7.3.

Sorry for the confusion.

Ok, so, Nate....

Can I assume you just don't want  to get into the actual problem here then?

 Nate IMO, the problem solving collective brainpower on this Forum is vastly superior to advice from Avid telephone tech support, especially from users like BLKDOG. If you'll give us a chance, we might be able to make you much happier with your Avid then you are right now. What have you got to lose?

Okay...now I'm having trouble keeping up with the responses--which I appreciate. I'm kind of feeling like the guy who has the sixth or seventh Doctor telling him, "Let's have a look at that polyp..." and while I hear the sound of latex gloves snapping on, am thinking..."Do we have to go there AGAIN???"

I never intended this to be hi-jacked into an Avid-bashing session. Blkdog is working with me via e-mail and he has my permission to share the exchange with anyone he chooses. As I mentioned, I just wanted to throw another point into the discussion. I didn't think it would be perceived as coming so far from left field. I have no doubt of the collective wisdom of the users here. But it's been seven long months of a truly unholy union....

NateW:

"Let's have a look at that polyp..." and while I hear the sound of latex gloves snapping on, am thinking..."Do we have to go there AGAIN???"

LOL!  Funny, I never fancied myself as an Avid Proctologist!

I spend a fair bit of time at the moment cursing at FCP. I think Avid is going in the right direction by simplifying their product offerings - Xpress Pro really was/is just a crippled version of Media Composer, it was a good option 5 years ago when the market was a little different, but with the increase in computing power, the DVisation of HD and overall changes in the marketplace, it makes no sense to maintain two similar but artificially different products with confusing options.

But there's the elephant in the room of course, cost... Six months ago at work we looked at the options for HD online, they were Avid MC with Adrenaline HD hardware or FCP with Blackmagic card. We just couldn't justify the cost of the Avid option at the time, and so FCP is what we've got for that role now. The consolidation of the product range and the introduction of HD DNA hardware has definitely improved that equation, but it's still leaning fairly heavily in FCPs favour, for less than the cost of a Nitris DX we bought an 8-core Mac Pro, Final Cut Studio and Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme. And it, pretty much, does all that we need it to, and with the addition of Apple Color even exceeds what we'd be able to achieve with Media Composer and a Nitris DX.

However I'd rather be using Avid. FCP is many things, but an efficent Online system it is not. It has been designed quite clearly for a single pass, capture-edit-output. Even things as simple as batch digitising or decomposing a sequence are difficult and problematic in FCP. The media management is a joke and frankly a bit scary sometimes. The demands for rendering are annoying.

These areas are places where Avid still has a clear advantage, and it needs to exploit that. While Apple shows no sign of improving any of these things (complaints about all these things can be found dating back years) there is the chance that they will, and when they do some of the last big and demonstrable barriers to high-end adoption of FCP will crumble.

I don't know the economics of it, and I do understand the advantages of the propritary products, but the price point of the DX hardware, while good in a larger context, is hard to justify in a marketplace where AJA and Blackmagic offer cards that seem similar or better for a fraction of the price. The software pricing is fine, Avid can cost more, but the hardware (which is the real enabler for HD work) is a bigger issue. For $11k you get the Nitris DX, or you can get 11 Decklink HD Extremes which appear to offer all the same I/O and format options.

The cost can be justified on it's own, especially in the context of pro HD gear, but is hard to justify in comparision with another product that can offer similiar or better performance. If the AJA and BMD products didn't exist then the DX product line would seem like a steal, but they do, and it doesn't.

I think Avid has made some big and sensible changes, but this one thing still seems like a huge hurdle for many businesses currently looking at the way forward in HD production.

This is one of Avid's challenges, demonstrating that a commoditized price is not the total cost picture.

Sycophant:

FCP is many things, but an efficent Online system it is not. It has been designed quite clearly for a single pass, capture-edit-output. Even things as simple as batch digitising or decomposing a sequence are difficult and problematic in FCP. The media management is a joke and frankly a bit scary sometimes. The demands for rendering are annoying.

All of these things you mention represent real costs to any post  facility. As I have said here many times if you add up the actual cost of using the "Cheaper" FCS bundle, the Avid solution comes out way ahead. How do I know? 'Cause we do the same thing you do. FCS for our HD onlines but we really didn't save ourselves any money internally.

Sycophant:

I spend a fair bit of time at the moment cursing at FCP. I think Avid is going in the right direction by simplifying their product offerings - Xpress Pro really was/is just a crippled version of Media Composer, it was a good option 5 years ago when the market was a little different, but with the increase in computing power, the DVisation of HD and overall changes in the marketplace, it makes no sense to maintain two similar but artificially different products with confusing options.

But there's the elephant in the room of course, cost... Six months ago at work we looked at the options for HD online, they were Avid MC with Adrenaline HD hardware or FCP with Blackmagic card. We just couldn't justify the cost of the Avid option at the time, and so FCP is what we've got for that role now. The consolidation of the product range and the introduction of HD DNA hardware has definitely improved that equation, but it's still leaning fairly heavily in FCPs favour, for less than the cost of a Nitris DX we bought an 8-core Mac Pro, Final Cut Studio and Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme. And it, pretty much, does all that we need it to, and with the addition of Apple Color even exceeds what we'd be able to achieve with Media Composer and a Nitris DX.

However I'd rather be using Avid. FCP is many things, but an efficent Online system it is not. It has been designed quite clearly for a single pass, capture-edit-output. Even things as simple as batch digitising or decomposing a sequence are difficult and problematic in FCP. The media management is a joke and frankly a bit scary sometimes. The demands for rendering are annoying.

These areas are places where Avid still has a clear advantage, and it needs to exploit that. While Apple shows no sign of improving any of these things (complaints about all these things can be found dating back years) there is the chance that they will, and when they do some of the last big and demonstrable barriers to high-end adoption of FCP will crumble.

I don't know the economics of it, and I do understand the advantages of the propritary products, but the price point of the DX hardware, while good in a larger context, is hard to justify in a marketplace where AJA and Blackmagic offer cards that seem similar or better for a fraction of the price. The software pricing is fine, Avid can cost more, but the hardware (which is the real enabler for HD work) is a bigger issue. For $11k you get the Nitris DX, or you can get 11 Decklink HD Extremes which appear to offer all the same I/O and format options.

The cost can be justified on it's own, especially in the context of pro HD gear, but is hard to justify in comparision with another product that can offer similiar or better performance. If the AJA and BMD products didn't exist then the DX product line would seem like a steal, but they do, and it doesn't.

I think Avid has made some big and sensible changes, but this one thing still seems like a huge hurdle for many businesses currently looking at the way forward in HD production.

Avid made a smart move by lowering hardware prices.  They're still overpriced feature-for-feature in comparison to BMD and AJA.  Because of the factors you mentioned, the Avid hardware will pay for itself in short order because of the time savings.  I'm a freelancer, and I charge my clients the same rate to watch the render progress bar as I do for everything else.  At my current rate, a Nitris DX could pay for itself in ten days of rendering, consolidation, media management, etc

I have witnessed a trend in my market of freelance Avid editors buying FCP systems and working more out of their homes.  I am one.  It's demonstrably hurting the small boutiques who are heavily invested in Avid systems.  If Avid could drop their prices on hardware another 25-50% and add low-cost HDMI monitoring, I'd predict that FCP would no longer be an attractive alternative.  So, this price drop is a step in the right direction.  I'm currently on the fence about buying a Nitris DX for my home.  I don't think the Mojo is an option because I can't imagine I'll be able to do without analog i/o.  But, I do think a more reasonable price point would drive many more sales, and the volume might be more attractive to Avid corporate and resellers, and would stimulate more support contracts for resellers.

IMO,

Jim

Avid 99:

Avid made a smart move by lowering hardware prices.  They're still overpriced feature-for-feature in comparison to BMD and AJA.  Because of the factors you mentioned, the Avid hardware will pay for itself in short order because of the time savings.  I'm a freelancer, and I charge my clients the same rate to watch the render progress bar as I do for everything else.  At my current rate, a Nitris DX could pay for itself in ten days of rendering, consolidation, media management, etc

That could still be a hardsell sight-unseen, as the FCP marketing makes a lot of 'realtime' and 'no rendering' - I've yet to see it (even with SD there is an alarming amount of rendering unless you're really careful about settings).

Clearly we understand the advantages and Avid counts on that, but it's not very clear, and for a small company or even a larger one looking to sink capital into an HD expansion, those longer term payoffs aren't necessarily obvious, especially if it's a marketing battle, when Apple's voice is loudest.

I have witnessed a trend in my market of freelance Avid editors buying FCP systems and working more out of their homes.  I am one.  It's demonstrably hurting the small boutiques who are heavily invested in Avid systems.  If Avid could drop their prices on hardware another 25-50% and add low-cost HDMI monitoring, I'd predict that FCP would no longer be an attractive alternative.  So, this price drop is a step in the right direction.  I'm currently on the fence about buying a Nitris DX for my home.  I don't think the Mojo is an option because I can't imagine I'll be able to do without analog i/o.  But, I do think a more reasonable price point would drive many more sales, and the volume might be more attractive to Avid corporate and resellers, and would stimulate more support contracts for resellers.

Certainly for a suite at home for small jobs or whatever FCP seems like the smart money purchase, in a situation where the efficiency and stability of Avid might not be such a major issue.

As for the Mojo, the more I think about it, the more I'm not too concerned, look at the BMD Converters - for $495 you can get a Component to SDI converter NTSC/PAL/720/1080... Great. Or for $995 you can get the Broadcast Converter, Analogue/SDI/HDMI conversion in both directions. Might make the Mojo DX a more useful beast.

Avid 99:

They're still overpriced feature-for-feature in comparison to BMD and AJA.

The BMD/AJA boxes do not do any form of HD codec processing - they are AFAIK, I/O boxes.

How many streams of real-time HD playback can you get with a BMD/AJA box connected to FCP?  I've heard 6 at DNx145 is possible with NitrisDX.  Obviously, I have not been able to test for myself, but I'm planning to attend the Avid Customer Event in Boston Wed night where I'm sure I'll see it in action.

Sycophant:

As for the Mojo, the more I think about it, the more I'm not too concerned, look at the BMD Converters - for $495 you can get a Component to SDI converter NTSC/PAL/720/1080... Great. Or for $995 you can get the Broadcast Converter, Analogue/SDI/HDMI conversion in both directions. Might make the Mojo DX a more useful beast.

 

That's a great idea I hadn't considered at a great savings!  The only downside I can see is fewer analog audio ins, but I can't remember the time I needed more than two input channels when capturing from analog.

Kenton.VanNatten:

I've heard 6 at DNx145 is possible with NitrisDX.  Obviously, I have not been able to test for myself, but I'm planning to attend the Avid Customer Event in Boston Wed night where I'm sure I'll see it in action.

 

I've been invited to play on a demo system, but I won't have time off until July or so.  So, I'll be curious to hear your report of that demo, if you wouldn't mind reporting back.  I thought part of the "new thinking" was to assign the video processing to the computer, and not the DNA.