Confirmation and New issues:

PRICING

So I've finally talked with both Final Cut and Avid educational salesmen and got the official scoops.

1. Avid doesn't have an official policy on discounts to upgrade educational software.  They seem to be really nice, but without an official policy, they have no way of advertising just how nice they are. Without this advertising, buyers must assume that they are in for paying a lot of money to keep their products up to date.

2. Final Cut doesn't give any special discounts for upgrading their products.  They consider going from version 5 to 6 to be a platform change so expect you to buy a new product.  The upgrades from say 5.1 to 5.2 are free for everyone (or a "nominal charge - like $100")  They consider the cost of the platforms to be so cheap as to not be an issue.  For example Studio 2 is $400 after the discount - equivalent to Avid's now discontinued Studio series that sold for $1000 with educational discount.

NEW ISSUES

Whenever you are planning to equip a lab, you also have to take into consideration compatibility, Ease of installation, pricing, what is available from other sources and grants and donations.

-Compatibility:

1. Avid's products are very compatible with each other.  If you start working on one system, you can take it to another computer and most of your choices will not be affected.  This is awesome.

2. Final Cut is highly incompatible.  A student brought in a piece he cut on 6.1 and it wouldn't work on our 6.0 system.  6.0 cuts have to be promoted to 6.1 before they can be seen on a 6.1 system, and then you can't go back.  This is frustrating.

-Ease of Installation/upgrading

In order to properly maintain our computers, we wipe them entirely clean at least once a year.  We reformat the drives, and reinstall everything.  When you have one person to do twenty computers each with multiple applications, this becomes labor intensive.  If this doesn't get done, the computers start having unpredictable errors and crashes.  So any shortcuts help.  Avid often has fresh disks for upgrades instead of installing one patch then the next then the next .etc...   What is bad about their installers is that they keep prompting you again and again, so you have to sit there with the computer instead of clicking your installation options and walking away.  Of course, you might suggest using a clone drive, but that only works if all your computers are the same.

-Pricing

When policies are unclear, and you have limited time to do research, you spend the money where you know it will help.  Honestly, sometimes this means buying something new that has an attractive price (ex Studio 2 for under $400) or skipping updating the editing all together and spending the money elsewhere.

-Taking advantage of what you have available to you.

Many of our students have nice computers.  Many of these will run editing systems really well. If the students could borrow software just as they borrow lights, cameras and sound gear that would increase their access to editing and save us thousands of dollars which we could use to upgrade the software.  This would be impossible with Final Cut which is not dongle based, but would be possible with Avid.  The unfortunate thing is the dongles are not backward compatible.  Once you upgrade a dongle, it won't work on an earlier version of AVID.  So that means that if a student had an older computer, we couldn't give him an older piece of software.  The work around for institutions is to either only upgrade a few dongles or upgrade none of them.

-Grants and Donations

Sometimes we have to apply for grants to get money.  These grants are often small so you get enough money to upgrade the computers or the software, but not both at the same time.  If pricing policies are unclear, then we won't waste time looking into it for a grant we might not even get.  Between this and donated computers, we often have a wide mix of computers and software. It would be nice to be able to have options to spend money in dribs and drabs in ways that would not create conflicts. For example, if we were to upgrade the dongle one time and the computer the next. But, like I say, the dongles are not backwards compatible, so this doesn't work.   I have learned that specs are not to be trusted, so it's a crapshoot as to whether upgrading the computer first makes sense.  For example, if the minimum spec for an upgrade is a 3.2 gig processor when I have a couple 2.8's.  Do I upgrade one computer to 3.6 or two to 3.2?  Well, i discovered that the 3.2 doesn't really work as advertised.  I have also found situations where the reverse was true - where computers that didn't met specs worked fine - sometimes better than those at spec.  Without first owning the software to test out on a computer to see if it actually works, I don't really know if upgrading the computer will actually make sense.  But if I upgrade a dongle and it doesn't work on the computers I have, then I have just put an editing system off line until the next grant.  Consequently, instead of upgrading all the computers and software, we end up buying one new computer with software.  This means that instead of all the kids editing on state of the art software, one is while the rest are playing in the stone age.

THE WRAP UP

To make a suggestion then to AVID, it would be:

1. Make the dongles backwards compatible.

2. Make your educational pricing for upgrades an official policy and advertise it.

3. Match pricing on Final Cut

4. Make installation of the software a one step process.  Have the user click off the options they want (or ALL) and then let them walk away while the computer does its thing.

Ssnygg:

1. Make the dongles backwards compatible.

They already are to a degree. 

Ssnygg:

2. Make your educational pricing for upgrades an official policy and advertise it.

Great idea, except many educational institutions educational discounts are based on the specific relationship between the school and the company offering the discount.  I know for a fact that Apple does this.

Ssnygg:

3. Match pricing on Final Cut

I don't think that's ever going to happen.  FCP is cheap because the cost of upgrading (as you pointed out) is higher, plus Avid doesn't have an "iPod" to help defray the cost of development of the software.

Ssnygg:

4. Make installation of the software a one step process.  Have the user click off the options they want (or ALL) and then let them walk away while the computer does its thing.

I totally agree with that... I very much like the Apple install model.

Ssnygg:

1. Make the dongles backwards compatible.

They absolutely are backwards compatible.  Take a Media Composer 2.8 dongle and try to run Media Composer 1.0.  I bet it does without any problems at all.

Michael.

Kenton.VanNatten:

I totally agree with that... I very much like the Apple install model.

My FCS2 one step install experience. Have 5 DVDs change them a total of 7 times and end up with a bloated 40 odd GB install that some dipstick programmer who has probably never used the programs made all the decisions about where and how it installs for everyone who buys it.  Sorry for me this equates to lowest common denominator programming designed for attention span deficient non thinking clients.

Whatever happened to individual thought and decision making... surely the essential basics of being an editor, director, compositor, graphics designer, sound designer etc

AndrewAction:

Kenton.VanNatten:

I totally agree with that... I very much like the Apple install model.

Really! I think it sucks big time.

I was referring to going to Software Update, choosing what you want in one go, agreeing to the TOU/licenses in one go and then saying "Install X items"

Kenton.VanNatten:

I was referring to going to Software Update

An Avid Salesman claimed that the dongles were NOT backwards compatible, but following your advice I tried a MC 2.7 dongle on a 2.6 and it worked fine.  I'm going to run more tests.  If the salesman was wrong, that would be awesome - in which case I would recommend that they not give out misinformation.  I would also recommend that they have a page on their site dedicated to schools that talks about the various issues I brought up -  Maybe even compare and contrast Final Cut to Avid.  Oh, and maybe compare and contrast the various Avid products.  I really can't tell much of a difference between Xpress Pro and MC - other than a few different keystrokes that i don't like and the ability to upgrade hardware that appears to add little functionality, (greater speed, some extra audio output and other HD injestion) - and a little unclear on pricing.  it would be nice to make this clearer. For example, how much money do I have to spend to not have to do any special rendering to output HD or cross formats?

Ssnygg:

Oh, and maybe compare and contrast the various Avid products.  I really can't tell much of a difference between Xpress Pro and MC

Hi,

The main difference is that Xpress Pro was discontinued a few weeks ago, while Media Composer wasn't. 

I agree that it would be cool to see a comparison chart comparing the capabilities of Media Composer (with and without Mojo or Adrenaline) and Symphony.  There may be one someplace, but I haven't seen it.

good luck,
Carl

if it is any comfort, i went to LAFS and they are all Avid.  they have two rooms full of Adrenalines, and they even have a Nitris.  all their sound design is ProTools - cool school on Sunset.

but this concern is SO true.  what students and indie editors are cuttong on now will cut tomorrows union features.  there is absolutely no way around that.

Ok, after a few tests, i can say that the dongles are backwards compatible only sometimes.  I tried an Xpress 5.7 dongle on a 3.5 system and it didn't recognize it. 

So yeah, if they could add that function, it would be a BOON to film schools.  If we didn't have to buy as many computers, we could buy a LOT more licenses.  With this in mind, Avid should also make legacy software and system specs available online.

Even if they could let us know which ones would be backwards compatible would be awesome.

3.5 is XDV...right? You can't use the dongles between software products (With the exception being a MC dongle that will run 'pro). But they are fully backwards compatible within product families.

I'm almost positive that xpress pro 5.7 is a straight upgrade line from 3.5.  At version 4 or so, xpress split in two directions -One that was less powerful than 3.5 and we were all told that despite the similar name, it was not considered an upgrade.  The other branch continued on to 5.8.

What has your experience been?

And then the next question is, since Xpress has been discontinued the only way to have backwards compatible dongles would be to swtich to MC.   Where could we find older version to run on our older computers?

I can't remember what version 'Pro began with but I believe it was 4.0.  There was never any Avid product less powerful than the 3.x versions of XDV. I believe you are thinking of the release of Xpress PRO which advanced the features available in XDV. The product did not split, it was a completely new product. That's why your dongle won't run it. Check your software, it probably says Xpress DV.

Ssnygg:

And then the next question is, since Xpress has been discontinued the only way to have backwards compatible dongles would be to swtich to MC.   Where could we find older version to run on our older computers?

As I said, MC dongle do run 'Pro software it's the one exception in the product line.