Latest post Mon, Oct 14 2019 3:21 PM by jlomicka. 55 replies.
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  • Sat, Oct 5 2019 8:12 PM In reply to

    Re: 96K audio?

    Wouldn't hurt to give it a try.

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  • Sat, Oct 5 2019 8:30 PM In reply to

    • insch
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    Re: 96K audio?

    Hopefully it will transcode the sequences using the 96k audio files and ignore the project audio setting of 48k. I’m not sure how I’d check whether it had gone through a conversion. Maybe a comparison with the original audio files?

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  • Sat, Oct 5 2019 8:41 PM In reply to

    • Leo Baker
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    Re: 96K audio?

    That's a very good point, as how would you know if a conversion from 96,000khz to 48,000khz back to 96,000khz is happening? Also why can't you export an AAF of the Media Composer project then in Blackmagic Da Vinci Resolve render out linking to the 96,000khz files?

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  • Sat, Oct 5 2019 8:47 PM In reply to

    • insch
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    Re: 96K audio?

    Yes, Resolve could be a way forward. I'll try the transcode method first though

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  • Sat, Oct 5 2019 9:13 PM In reply to

    • insch
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    Re: 96K audio?

    Job ter Burg:

    Wouldn't hurt to give it a try.

    I transcoded the sequence to ProRes4444. I then I tried to export that transcoded sequence as ProRes (HQ) 'Same as Source'. It wouldn't let me and came up with this error message, suggesting that it would export as DNxHR. That's not what I want and the media clip it is using is ProRes4444. Any advice?

     

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  • Tue, Oct 8 2019 9:10 AM In reply to

    • insch
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    Re: 96K audio?

    Leo Baker:

    That's a very good point, as how would you know if a conversion from 96,000khz to 48,000khz back to 96,000khz is happening? Also why can't you export an AAF of the Media Composer project then in Blackmagic Da Vinci Resolve render out linking to the 96,000khz files?

    The definitive line about 96k audio from Avid, as in the manual (page 863), is below. I can't see where to disable SDI output though and don't know if I have it on or not. I am not using an SDI connection.

    From manual...

    Embedded Audio and Output Sample Rate ConversionThe format for embedded audio must be 48 kHz. If you attempt to set the sample rate to a different value while SD SDI or HD SDI output is enabled, the system displays a message indicating “Switching out of a 48K while SDI Embedded outputs are enabled requires a sample rate conversion of all audio outputs to 48K.”For example, if you have 8 channels of HD SDI output enabled and attempt to change the sample rate to 96 kHz, the system displays the message.In this example you can switch the project to 96 kHz, but if the SDI outputs are enabled, the system will convert all audio output to 48 kHz.cThis affects all audio outputs, not just the SDI outputs. That means AES/EBU output will be converted and any Analog output will also be converted. This could result in a quality loss for the Analog signal.The way to prevent the automatic conversion is to turn off the SDI output. Then you can change to 96 kHz and output an Analog or AES/EBU signal without any conversion. You can change to SDI output later and output a 48 kHz embedded audio signal using hardware sample rate conversion

     

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  • Tue, Oct 8 2019 10:22 AM In reply to

    Re: 96K audio?

    I transcoded the sequence to ProRes4444. I then I tried to export that transcoded sequence as ProRes (HQ) 'Same as Source'. It wouldn't let me and came up with this error message, suggesting that it would export as DNxHR. That's not what I want and the media clip it is using is ProRes4444. Any advice?

    Are you in a 444 project? You would need to be in order to do a 444 same-as-source export. Also, canvas size needs to match between source file and project.

    But ProRes HQ and ProRes4444 are two different things, so you have me a little confused here.

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  • Tue, Oct 8 2019 10:26 AM In reply to

    Re: 96K audio?

    insch:
    I can't see where to disable SDI output though and don't know if I have it on or not. I am not using an SDI connection.
    That probably only applies to DX boxes. If you're on any other box, check Settings, Audio Project, Output tab. On my Nitris DX system, I can there set multiple output options for Ananlog, AES/EBU, Optical, Coax, SD SDI, HD SDI and HDMI.

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  • Tue, Oct 8 2019 10:57 AM In reply to

    • insch
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    Re: 96K audio?

    Job ter Burg:

    I transcoded the sequence to ProRes4444. I then I tried to export that transcoded sequence as ProRes (HQ) 'Same as Source'. It wouldn't let me and came up with this error message, suggesting that it would export as DNxHR. That's not what I want and the media clip it is using is ProRes4444. Any advice?

    Are you in a 444 project? You would need to be in order to do a 444 same-as-source export. Also, canvas size needs to match between source file and project.

    But ProRes HQ and ProRes4444 are two different things, so you have me a little confused here.

    Thank you. Yes, what I meant to say was that I was exporting as ProRes HQ with 4.4.4 chroma filtering enabled. Some of my rushes are 444 and some are 422. I'm not sure about whether my project itself is 4444. I have set the Color Space to RGB709 and can certainly transcode to 4444. My project is 4K but some of my sequences are HD so there could be a canvas size issue there. Ultimately I want to export all my sequences as ProRes, ideally as 444, but I only see two ProRes options available - 422 and 422 (HQ). And I need to export my sequences with 96k audio, without going through a conversion to 48k somewhere along the way.

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  • Tue, Oct 8 2019 11:03 AM In reply to

    • insch
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    Re: 96K audio?

    Thanks Job

    If I go to Settings/Audio Project/Output I get this (see grab), so no SDI option. And in Hardware I get (see second grab). My audio hardware is a MOTU 8M connected via Thunderbolt. Any thoughts?

     

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  • Tue, Oct 8 2019 4:49 PM In reply to

    • jlomicka
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    Re: 96K audio?

    How do I view the grabs?  I didn't see them attached.

    Anyway, the MOTU 8M appears to be an audio-only interface, and not an OpenIO video/audio device.

    Media Composer will not give you 96Khz support outside of Open-IO plug-in or built-in video hardware support, and right now the only supported hardware that does 96Khz audio is Nitris/Mojo DX. You do not have a path to success in your 96Khz export goals without it.  (I'm the Media Composer Audio architect, I'm not just guessing here.)

    MOTU used to provide video devices with OpenIO plug-ins - they had one called "HDX" that included video support through OpenIO and even allowed 96khz. They had great audio support in that device, owing to their history as an audio device company.  This was the only OpenIO device I know of that included 96K, but ONLY THROGUH THE OPEN-IO PLUG-IN, and I don't think they offer or support that any more.

    I thnk you make a good argument for Media Composer to provide 96Khz support through audio-only audio interfaces, such as the 8M or even Avid's own devices, like the Quartet.  You would be right to escalate this as a "feature request".  You really want two things:

    • General support for 96Khz audio samples rates when using CoreAudio (Mac) or ASIO/DirectSound (Win) devices that support it, and

    • Support for export, mixdown, and transcode of 96Khz audio independent of the presense of or capabilities of attached hardware, subject to the limitations of allowed export container formats.

    Given the age and remaining lifetime of the DX line, I think this is a very reasonable request!

  • Tue, Oct 8 2019 5:19 PM In reply to

    • insch
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    Re: 96K audio?

    jlomicka:

    How do I view the grabs?  I didn't see them attached.

    Anyway, the MOTU 8M appears to be an audio-only interface, and not an OpenIO video/audio device.

    Media Composer will not give you 96Khz support outside of Open-IO plug-in or built-in video hardware support, and right now the only supported hardware that does 96Khz audio is Nitris/Mojo DX. You do not have a path to success in your 96Khz export goals without it.  (I'm the Media Composer Audio architect, I'm not just guessing here.)

    MOTU used to provide video devices with OpenIO plug-ins - they had one called "HDX" that included video support through OpenIO and even allowed 96khz. They had great audio support in that device, owing to their history as an audio device company.  This was the only OpenIO device I know of that included 96K, but ONLY THROGUH THE OPEN-IO PLUG-IN, and I don't think they offer or support that any more.

    I thnk you make a good argument for Media Composer to provide 96Khz support through audio-only audio interfaces, such as the 8M or even Avid's own devices, like the Quartet.  You would be right to escalate this as a "feature request".  You really want two things:

    • General support for 96Khz audio samples rates when using CoreAudio (Mac) or ASIO/DirectSound (Win) devices that support it, and

    • Support for export, mixdown, and transcode of 96Khz audio independent of the presense of or capabilities of attached hardware, subject to the limitations of allowed export container formats.

    Given the age and remaining lifetime of the DX line, I think this is a very reasonable request!

     

    Thank you for your post - very helpful

    Yes, the 8M is an audio-only interface, working at up to 192K.

    I worked with someone from Avid support today to work out the best workflow for me and they assured me that I would be able to work with 96k audio throughout with my setup. Were they wrong?

    Just to clarify:

    1) My project audio settings are set to 48K (the highest I can go)

    2) I have imported my 96k audio tracks (created externally) at 96K by deselecting  'Sample rate convert source sample rate to project sample rate' in MC. These clips are stated as having 96k audio in the bins.

    3) I have cut those 96k audio clips into my sequences.

    4) I have exported my sequences as 96k by selecting that audio option in ProRes 422 HQ

    5) The resultant exported files are showing as having 96k audio when opened in MediaInfo or Quicktime.

    So, if my setup can't actually work with 96k, where is the problem occuring - import or export? Why is MC saying that these files are 96k throughout if they are not? Am I understanding this correctly? Or am I getting 96k because I am working with 'built-in video hardware support'?

    Best, Phil

     

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  • Tue, Oct 8 2019 7:02 PM In reply to

    • jlomicka
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    Re: 96K audio?

    I wrote a long, detailed reply to this, which I think was dropped on the floor.

  • Tue, Oct 8 2019 7:20 PM In reply to

    • insch
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    Re: 96K audio?

    jlomicka:

    I wrote a long, detailed reply to this, which I think was dropped on the floor.

    It would be great to know your thoughts on my reply. I'm still unclear as to whether MC is keeping the integrity of my 96k files, which it appears to be doing, or converting them to 48k at some point along the way.

    Mac Pro, 3.7 GHz Quad-core, 32GB RAM, G-Tech G-RAID Studio etc. [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Oct 8 2019 7:33 PM In reply to

    • jlomicka
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    Re: 96K audio?

    I will try again.

    I went into the source code to see what is really happening, and ineed I spoke too soon, there IS a way to stay at 96Khz through export, even without 96Khz video hardware, and that is to export as "Audio", and choose 96Khz (.WAV) there.  It also works if you export as Quickitme Reference and mix down the audio to 96Khz there (which is just another way to generate .WAV).  Both of these will preserve full fidelity.  You have to choose the 96Khz in Avid's export dialog, NOT just in Apple's Quicktime Options dialog.

    I've not been understanding how and where you "exported my sequences as 96k by selecting that audio option in ProRes 422 HQ".  I asked before, but I'm still not sure, is this a "Quicktime" export where you hit the "options" dialog and get Apple's QT settings window, and choose 96Khz there?  Or is this an MXF OP1A workflow? Or something else?

    I checked the Quickitme path in the debugger, and it is definitely NOT feeding 96Khz to Apple's export code.  Media Composer is converting to project sample rate (48Khz) and feeding that to Apple's Quicktime library, whcih converts it to whatever you select in their "Options" dialog. I am quite certain of this, as I stepped through it in the debugger. If you were told otherwise, I could understand how somebody might think so, but it is not how it actually works. Media Composer doesn't really have visibilty into what you choose in Apple's "options" dialog.

    What project format are you working in?  I want to try to reproduce this.  I was looking for Pro Res under MXF OP1A export, to see if you could get 96tKhz there, but I didn't see it listed. I want to try that with and without the Nitris DX attached, and see if I can set up a Pro Res OP1A workflow, and figure out what work would be required to expand that to include the full suite of sample rates, as is done for "Audio".

    Bottom line, however, is that I think your best workflow is going to be to export Quicktime Reference, pre-rendering all the video effects, and using the QT Ref export dialog to select a mix down of the audio to 96Khz .WAV.  You can then take the resulting .MOV and its referenced material into an external application to export as a single .MOV file with embedded 96Khz audio and Pro Res video.  (There are several applications that can do that.)  Not a bad workflow, really, because QT reference export is very fast, and you can let the ProRes encoder work in the background while you continue to edit in Media Composer. 

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