Latest post Thu, Apr 4 2019 7:35 AM by luca.mg. 8 replies.
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  • Tue, Apr 2 2019 8:10 PM

    • Adrian Redmond
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    • Channel 6 Television Denmark
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    Peculiar sub-clipping behaviour

    I am currently digitizing a lot of old U-Matic tapes, caturing the entire reel - or major portions of it, at a time.

    The resulting clip plays back fine - typically captures with Video (V1) and a single audio track (A2) - as indicated in the clip list as V1 A2.

    But when I open the clip to create sub-clips of the individual shots, something curious happens - somewhere in the middle of the process, having created a bunch of subclips with the same trackl configuration, MC (8.5.3.) suddenly creates the sub-clips as Audio only clips - QA2 - I first saw this after having sub-clipped about 60 shots.

    Somethimes when I sub-clip again, I get the same fault - sometimes, if I rebbot and start again, the problem might og away.

    The incorrectly made sub-clips cannot be modified to add the Video track - even though they cam from a clip that had oth audio and video.

    Any words of wisdom on this out there?

    Avid Media Composer v. 8.5.3. with Symphony Option on HP Z820 Dual Intel E5-2640 6-core HT 2.5GHz CPU 32GB RAM NVidia Quadro K4000 Graphics on Win7x64... [view my complete system specs]

    Adrian Redmond
    Owner / Producer / Editor
    Channel 6 Television Denmark

  • Tue, Apr 2 2019 9:31 PM In reply to

    Re: Peculiar sub-clipping behaviour

    Adrian Redmond:
    sometimes, if I rebbot and start again, the problem might og away.

    Is typing ac·cu·rate·ly part of it?

    I never use subclips. Best to learn tricks of Consolidating... or not.

    Windows7 Pro; HP 820z, 16GB ram; Composer Nitris DX, Squeeze v8.5 Pro _____ Windows10 Pro x64 Dell XPS 8930 Special Edition Tower i7-8700 3.2 Ghz; 32GB... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Apr 2 2019 9:51 PM In reply to

    • Adrian Redmond
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    • Joined on Wed, May 28 2014
    • Channel 6 Television Denmark
    • Posts 176
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    Re: Peculiar sub-clipping behaviour

    My apologies for the typos - the text in the mail compose window in this forum is far too small for my old eyes :)

    I think I solved the problem. I had an ampty timeline open, though not intentionally in use. Whe I opened the clips to be sub-clipped, the timeline track election mimicked the available tracks of the clip. Somehow, I must have inadvertently delected the video track on the timeline, and that it turns out influences the resulting subclip. With the timeline track enabled - or better still - with the timeline closed, the clips creat sub-clips with track allocation identical to the master clip.

    I'm not sure if this was a bug, or whether it is an intended feature of MC, the purpose of which I have yet to discover. Might be useful of one wants to create a subslip that has a different track selection to the master clip (for example audio only) but a strange feature for me to discover in this way.

    We live and learn - though the black art of consolidation is something I have not embraced yet. I did one attempt last week and got very confusing results and one other editor in tis forum did warn me that such things can happen.

    I'm sure consolidation can work out one day - but the process seems to complex for the simple command "take the sub-clips I have marked and create new media as separate master clips and put these in Bin X - so that I can subsequently delete the original capture and subclips"

    Until then I'll live with sub-clipping - thanks!

     

     

     

    Avid Media Composer v. 8.5.3. with Symphony Option on HP Z820 Dual Intel E5-2640 6-core HT 2.5GHz CPU 32GB RAM NVidia Quadro K4000 Graphics on Win7x64... [view my complete system specs]

    Adrian Redmond
    Owner / Producer / Editor
    Channel 6 Television Denmark

  • Wed, Apr 3 2019 5:27 AM In reply to

    Re: Peculiar sub-clipping behaviour

    Adrian Redmond:
    I'm not sure if this was a bug, or whether it is an intended feature of MC, the purpose of which I have yet to discover. Might be useful of one wants to create a subslip that has a different track selection to the master clip (for example audio only) but a strange feature for me to discover in this way.

    Intended feature. Say, for example, you work for a major news network where material is brought into a massive shared storage system by TX operators or media managers who are not editors and don't really care what audio is on what channel, so when a producer brings them a 22 minute interview with the subject's audio on A1, they bring it into the system with the default setting of 16 audio tracks, resulting in one useful channel and 15 with tone on them. Sometimes cameras record the same way, so no matter what the ingest person does they'll get a clip with 16 audio channels.

    The first thing I'll do when I get the clip is subclip the master clip with only V1 and A1 active, resulting in a clip with only 1 video track and 1 audio track with the subject's audio on it.

    Media Composer 2018.12.5 w/Symphony/SS/PF options, HP Envy 17t-j100 Quad Edition laptop, Windows 10 Pro, Intel Core i7 2.4GHz, 16 GB RAM, nVidia GeForce... [view my complete system specs]

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who only consider the price are this man's lawful prey."  - John Ruskin (1819-1900)

     

    Carl Amoscato | Freelance Film & Video Editor | London, UK

  • Wed, Apr 3 2019 6:07 AM In reply to

    • luca.mg
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Roma - Italy
    • Posts 5,582
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    Re: Peculiar sub-clipping behaviour

    Consolidate may be dangerous on old tape originated media, with potentially duplicate TC, unless You took countermeasures while digitizing, like cheating a fake new tape name at each TC reset.

    Symphony 2018.12.3, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

  • Wed, Apr 3 2019 8:32 AM In reply to

    Re: Peculiar sub-clipping behaviour

    You had asked about Consolidation previously and got some good replies, here:

    http://community.avid.com/forums/t/196757.aspx

    In re-reading your “ask” in the link above, it sounded like you were needing to use Consolidate after a long capture to generate masterclips on a per-shot basis, minus colorbars, etc. from your tape. Easily done after preparing an edited sequence properly along with choosing correct Consolidate options in MC.

    Pat H’s answer explained the difficulty that you *may* have encountered in your Consolidate test. If you can describe it or try again, I’m  sure we all can help you avoid unexpected results.

    My response and the link I provided had to do with TC accuracy, which may or may not concern you in your project.

    If I were you, I would consider making “Sub-Sequences” from the timeline after placing the captured clips from a single tape there using the AutoSequence tool, which preserves TC gaps by matching the Timeline Seqyence Master TC to the V1 TC of each clip on it.

    If you then go through your AutoSequenced timeline, Sub-Sequencing only the shots you want, including those that were sequential, but included those gaps you mentioned, you would eventually generate yourself a bin of Sub-Sequences you could address in a variety of ways:

    One way is rob Consolidate the Sub-Sequences. Do NOT chose option to “Delete original media”.

    Or:

    You could Export them all to a “mezzanine” format, and if I’m not mistaken, you can do this in a batch (overnite?) and have useful TC-accurate (or close to accurate) link-able format files that will be archivable. I believe that was basically Pat’s suggestion.

    Even if some minor TC inaccuracy was introduced as a result of your long tape captures (see links above), your new mezzanine format files/clips would be very close. And you can re-arrange audio tracks on the timeline.

    MC does a good job of providing options as you seek to archive your old tapes.

    Ask someone else here which SD (or HD?) format is best to use as a mezzanine... My eyes are getting old, too.

    Windows7 Pro; HP 820z, 16GB ram; Composer Nitris DX, Squeeze v8.5 Pro _____ Windows10 Pro x64 Dell XPS 8930 Special Edition Tower i7-8700 3.2 Ghz; 32GB... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Apr 3 2019 2:55 PM In reply to

    • luca.mg
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
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    Re: Peculiar sub-clipping behaviour

    Guys, with old U-Matic tapes, especially if camera tapes, it is fairly common to come across duplicate timecodes on a given tape, e.g. every time the camera is stopped, or turned off between shots, the TC restarts from 00:00:00:00. Capture simply stops when there's such a TC reset. If the operator hits record again there will be several clips with common TC belonging to the very same tape; when consolidating this kind of footage MC might get confused, You may find the content of a shot replaced with some other stuff sharing the same TC coming from another portion of the tape, this is at least my experience going back to the U-Matic age, YMMV. It is possible to digitize the tapes generating new TOD TC, also capturing across (small) TC breaks, and then go for a troublefree consolidate, but please note that it won't be possible to redigitize being the original on tape TC "forgotten". If the goal is to capture for archival and get rid of the tapes it shouldn't be an issue. If it was me I would digitize every tape at once (the less You mess with old hardware and tapes the better), like if it was a non remotable source (the deck button in the capture tool), assign a unique tape name to each tape, or else You'll end up with duplicate TC in the long run, and simply hit play on the player, and record on the capture tool, this will write clips with TOD TC avoiding potential consolidate mess. Just my 2c, but I hope it helps.

    Symphony 2018.12.3, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

  • Wed, Apr 3 2019 3:14 PM In reply to

    • Adrian Redmond
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, May 28 2014
    • Channel 6 Television Denmark
    • Posts 176
    • Points 2,475

    Re: Peculiar sub-clipping behaviour

    I agree with Luca on the issues of old U-Matic recordings, particularly the problem of discontinuity of LTC when powering up and down, changing batteries etc. without having ensures a backpace edit restart.

    But as far as I can see, and this is supported by my experience with many old tapes, MC references the clip on a timeline but the tape identifier and the unique name of the mediafile and not the clip name or the timecode. Obviously it refers to the timecode of the particular media file, but I haven't seen MC choose the wrong clip simply because of duplicate timecode values. After all, if thatw erre possible, MC could erroneously reference two different tapes that coincidently have similar timecode ranges.

    I am guessing that this is the underlying logic of Avid - and many other NLE systems - of creating unique file names when capturing, names that will continue to identify the specific clip, even if the editor renames the clip in the bin.

    Laying new timecode at the same time has its potential benefits, but it does forever separate the resulting bin clip list from anything resembling the actual - even erroneous or duplate - TC data on the original tape. Thus needing to recapture the material at a later data - possibly to a better, as yet unreleased codec format, would require a total relog/recapture.

     

    Avid Media Composer v. 8.5.3. with Symphony Option on HP Z820 Dual Intel E5-2640 6-core HT 2.5GHz CPU 32GB RAM NVidia Quadro K4000 Graphics on Win7x64... [view my complete system specs]

    Adrian Redmond
    Owner / Producer / Editor
    Channel 6 Television Denmark

  • Thu, Apr 4 2019 7:35 AM In reply to

    • luca.mg
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Roma - Italy
    • Posts 5,582
    • Points 65,470

    Re: Peculiar sub-clipping behaviour

    Hi Adrian, I do agree that clips should have unique metadata, but it happened to me that consolidating resulted in the wrong stuff in place, don't know why. My take on this is to consolidate without deleting the source clips, and manually deleting after checking that everything is in the right place. I also assign dummy tape names whenever the TC resets, eg TAPE_123_a TAPE_123_b TAPE_123_c and so on, this way, should You redigitize, You can work out what is what and where it is located. As for keeping the original tapes, if You archive to a better resolution than the original one You'll be futureproof. That said, newly generated TOD TC should ease the process, if going back to the originals is not required.

    Symphony 2018.12.3, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

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