Latest post Mon, Dec 31 2018 3:13 PM by Adrian Redmond. 11 replies.
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  • Sun, Dec 23 2018 2:19 PM

    • Adrian Redmond
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    • Joined on Wed, May 28 2014
    • Channel 6 Television Denmark
    • Posts 176
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    VTR hardware control when logging/capturing

    I appreciate that files are the cassettes of the future and that therefore Avid has almost ignored enhancing support for VTR based acquisition in recent years. Even in 2014 I was dismayed to discover that the Artist Transport control panel cannot control my VTR when logging or capturing - at first I thought this was either my error or a bug - or at least an oversight on Avid's part, but after many mails back and forth I discovered that Transport - via Eucontrol - doesn't support VTR's. Why Avid won't correct this I fail to understand - even if there are only a percentage of editors running VTR's for ingest, the problem must be easy to solve - after all, if Transport can follow the transport controls of source and record veiwers, it can't be that complicated to make it do the same with the logging and capture windows?

    I have raised this issue again, but I don't hold out much hope, so I'm looking for anotherw ay to get hardware tactile jog-shuttle control of a VTR for logging and editing.

    It's no problem to remote control the VTR and use another remote panel - I have several of thes, but if the VTR is controlled by a remote panel, it cannot at the same time be seen by Avid - which implies that any VTR remote has to work through Avid.

    I know I probably p#%% peopole off by constantly harping on about the good old days of Liquid Silver, but I do miss the ability to log and cature from a hardware jog shuttle panel, that even in 1999 could behave exactly like a Sony VTR remote (even on the Liquid viewers and timeline, something which even Transport cannot do well). The Silver Jog/Shuttle panel could both control the VTR, set the mark in and out points, log the clip, and the software handled incremental clip naming - any user defined clip name endning with an integer would automatically be incremented by +1 when the next clip was logged.

    This meant that the tedious task of logging tapes one clip at a time - which both eliminates unwanted footage and gives a comprehensive overview of the material - was reasy and only required one hand - no moving back between controller, keyboard and mouse. That way, a Digibeta 50 minute tape with over 100 clips could be logged in around 20 minutes. The same task with HDCAM 50 minute tapes in MC takes over an hour, simply because VTR control using JKL or mouse is far slower and less precise than using a traditional JS controller and the multiple movement between mouse and keyboard is both tiring and slower.

    IMHO Avid ( or Euphonix) made a mistake with the Artist panels, in that most functions are simply piggy-backed onto keyboard shortcuts, and these commands are seen by the system as keyboard operations, which when logging may be in conflict with intended use fo the keyboard.

    For example - when you set an out point in MC, the cursor moved to the next designer inteded function - the clip name field - and if you try to set the out point again, using the keyboard, it will overwrite youyr clip name with, or simply add the keyboard command for OUT, which is either R or O. In the old days, it was possible to set a mark out several times without having to use the moust to get the function back - this slows up the process in a way which having the keyboard separate from the jog-shuttle panel did not.

    So my question is - does anyone know of a hardware jog-shuttle device, with user defineable soft keys, that can control a VTR through Avid MC (8.5.3) via USB/COM or MIDI ports in parallel with the keyboard/mouse?

    I understand that JL Cooper used to do these, but as far as I know, Avid MC no longer supports these?

    Any solutions out there?  - Seasons Greetings to all... :)

     

     

     

    Avid Media Composer v. 8.5.3. with Symphony Option on HP Z820 Dual Intel E5-2640 6-core HT 2.5GHz CPU 32GB RAM NVidia Quadro K4000 Graphics on Win7x64... [view my complete system specs]

    Adrian Redmond
    Owner / Producer / Editor
    Channel 6 Television Denmark

  • Sun, Dec 23 2018 3:41 PM In reply to

    Re: VTR hardware control when logging/capturing

    Season’s Greetings, and Happy Upgrades!  I can’t answer your last question. From your other posts,  I gather that you have a large amount of tapes as archive and many of the VTRs to play them. I do not agree that maintaining VTR control support is easy, anymore. Who can say?

    Time marches on, but I think those VTRs usually have very robust Jog/Shuttle wheels. I know you can Log-Capture on the fly directly into NitisDX and can Consolidate any masterclips if I need to. Now, I am “file-based” and simpatico with the ongoing stream of 2018 engineering and request fulfillment. 

    Years ago I archived my old Beta SP tapes via SDI to Sony XDCam so that my archive of MXF files would be Audio plus Video in one MXF (rather than separate audio MXFs) and sonewhat future-proof, thanks to Sony. I suppose I could have found a more excellent signal path, but I needed to lose the tape. It’s SD and preserving every bit of signal is good practice, so I applaud you (with my one hand not on a jog/shuttle wheel!)

    I hope you get all your wishes, but if you don’t, why not find or set up a Retro capture/logging pc that supports your old VTRs and transfer your media into a current version MC for editing? Did you discard your working Liquid gear? Can Liquid captures AMA/Link in a 2018 version of MC? Is that an option for you?

     

    Windows7 Pro; HP 820z, 16GB ram; Composer Nitris DX, Squeeze v8.5 Pro _____ Windows10 Pro x64 Dell XPS 8930 Special Edition Tower i7-8700 3.2 Ghz; 32GB... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Dec 23 2018 10:38 PM In reply to

    • Adrian Redmond
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, May 28 2014
    • Channel 6 Television Denmark
    • Posts 176
    • Points 2,465

    Re: VTR hardware control when logging/capturing

    I have about 8500 videotapes on archive of various formats, plus the VTR's to play them and I maintain these myself.

    Capturing onj the fly isn't an option, as I wish to log using VTR source timecode and also be able to re-capture at a later date if need be.

    One workaround I did get to run was to log my HDCAM footage in Liquid Chrome SD using an SDI feed for monitoring, then when the reel is logged, export the logging list as an ALE, edit it in an ASCIII text editor to set the head info correct for HD 1080-50i and import this ALE into Media Composer, and then capture from that. It's a clumsy workaround, but it does allow me to log using a proper "steering wheel" :)

    I have retained both my Liquid Silver (SD) and Liquid Chrome HD and SD) workstations in an adjacent edit area so I still have access to these.

    I'm nort so keen on AMA as I prefer traditional capture as I usually handle this in full HD resolution so I have little to transcode / recaptur to hires later - luckily I have ample HDD server storage for this.

    I'm still amazed that Avid cannot handle getting Avid Transport to control a VTR - this must be one of the most simple modfications (or repair, depending on how you view it) to Media Composer.

    On is allowed to hope, eh? - Just as long as we don't hold our breath :)

    Avid Media Composer v. 8.5.3. with Symphony Option on HP Z820 Dual Intel E5-2640 6-core HT 2.5GHz CPU 32GB RAM NVidia Quadro K4000 Graphics on Win7x64... [view my complete system specs]

    Adrian Redmond
    Owner / Producer / Editor
    Channel 6 Television Denmark

  • Mon, Dec 24 2018 11:27 AM In reply to

    Re: VTR hardware control when logging/capturing

    That’s a lot of HD tape to log! I hope you get your support and suspect you will. 

    What are you shooting?  Sony must love you...

     

     

    Windows7 Pro; HP 820z, 16GB ram; Composer Nitris DX, Squeeze v8.5 Pro _____ Windows10 Pro x64 Dell XPS 8930 Special Edition Tower i7-8700 3.2 Ghz; 32GB... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Dec 25 2018 9:51 AM In reply to

    • Gretski
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    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Posts 177
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    Re: VTR hardware control when logging/capturing

    Hi,  I just archived my Digi library to files successfully with timecode / logging.

    I used a a USB to serial port adaptor and a RS 232 - 422 adaptor like we used in the old days.

    You could also use a pcie serial port card.

    It worked exactly as it should with full control and timecode capture.

     

    https://picclick.com/Addenda-RS232-to-RS422-Adapter-Avid-Qualified-RS-2-8D-153186119886.html

    Asus X299, i7 7820, Nvidia 2000M 32GB ram, NVME SSD 8.9.1 ( yes its very fast!) [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Dec 25 2018 7:16 PM In reply to

    Re: VTR hardware control when logging/capturing

    Personally I'd just capture the whole tape and then log the resultant media clip.

    if space is an issue capture the tape at a proxy res. Log that and then bacth capture at the required quality.

    This is why its not an issue for ingest any more. Nobody captures bits of tapes. ingest just makes a digital file of the tape. It the simplest way.

    Also as tape transports age using jog and shuttle increases the risk of tape damage. Where as just playing end to end is safer.

     

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  VET

     

    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet.co.uk | W www.vet.co.uk |


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  • Wed, Dec 26 2018 4:30 PM In reply to

    • Adrian Redmond
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, May 28 2014
    • Channel 6 Television Denmark
    • Posts 176
    • Points 2,465

    Re: VTR hardware control when logging/capturing

    Pat wrote : "Nobody captures bits of tapes"

    I do! I have worked like this for years and prefer to log my raw footage one clip at a time, which emans I get to weed out everything that is not useful and end up with a great overview of my material - not just for the current project, but in years ahead when i reimport the bin to other projects or need to recapture to a different resolution.

    This is really a question of editor choice - I am aware that others do logging the quick and dirty way but I prefer this approach and would prefer that Avid made that a lttle easier with VTR control.

    Avid Media Composer v. 8.5.3. with Symphony Option on HP Z820 Dual Intel E5-2640 6-core HT 2.5GHz CPU 32GB RAM NVidia Quadro K4000 Graphics on Win7x64... [view my complete system specs]

    Adrian Redmond
    Owner / Producer / Editor
    Channel 6 Television Denmark

  • Wed, Dec 26 2018 9:07 PM In reply to

    Re: VTR hardware control when logging/capturing

    I was wondering- Avid has made so many specialty products- is there a way to edit from a VTR into a timeline? I seem to recall some kind of “VTR emulation” concept... MC as Source? Or Record? Or either? Perhaps that could help.

    Windows7 Pro; HP 820z, 16GB ram; Composer Nitris DX, Squeeze v8.5 Pro _____ Windows10 Pro x64 Dell XPS 8930 Special Edition Tower i7-8700 3.2 Ghz; 32GB... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Dec 30 2018 12:02 PM In reply to

    • CinéMatica
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    • Belgium | Europe
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    Re: VTR hardware control when logging/capturing

    Adrian Redmond:
    I'm still amazed that Avid cannot handle getting Avid Transport to control a VTR

    Adrian, I think it was never the intention to do this. It was made for shutteling and jogging through timelines and footage in Media Composer and Pro Tools. My personal opinian is that it also works better in Pro Tools than in Media Composer. Confused

     

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  • Sun, Dec 30 2018 12:42 PM In reply to

    • Adrian Redmond
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, May 28 2014
    • Channel 6 Television Denmark
    • Posts 176
    • Points 2,465

    Re: VTR hardware control when logging/capturing

    Sadly, I think you are right, though it still surprises me that something as obvious of allowing Transport to control whatever viewer one is using, regardless of whether its a source/record viewer or the VTR for capturing/logging was not considered - after all, transport simply uses keyboard commands, and the keyboard can cotrol ecverything - including VTR's using J-K-L, so it can't have been a difficult feature to infcorporate - the technology was already there. :)

    Avid Media Composer v. 8.5.3. with Symphony Option on HP Z820 Dual Intel E5-2640 6-core HT 2.5GHz CPU 32GB RAM NVidia Quadro K4000 Graphics on Win7x64... [view my complete system specs]

    Adrian Redmond
    Owner / Producer / Editor
    Channel 6 Television Denmark

  • Sun, Dec 30 2018 5:14 PM In reply to

    Re: VTR hardware control when logging/capturing

    Adrian Redmond:

    Sadly, I think you are right, though it still surprises me that something as obvious of allowing Transport to control whatever viewer one is using, regardless of whether its a source/record viewer or the VTR for capturing/logging was not considered - after all, transport simply uses keyboard commands, and the keyboard can cotrol ecverything - including VTR's using J-K-L, so it can't have been a difficult feature to infcorporate - the technology was already there. :)

    Its not as simple as that. Each deck has a specific control set so the NLE would need to allow for that. Also the ballistics on the vtr have to be allowed for so how the VTR behaves when you go from shuttle forward to pause or reverse.

    All doable but not as straightforward as it seems and more comlex than just capturing from tape. (and I remember when even tape captures weren't that straight forward)

     

    But I stand by the current practice of simple ingest to make file based media and then cutting that media up as required(deleting whats not not needed if required)

    I've logged and captured before and we only did that beacuse we had limited storage space. As soon as space wasn't an issue it was normally quciker to leave an ingest running start to finish (no operator needed during ingest) Then cut up the outputted file.

    Computers and even decks are realtivly cheap compared to operator time and I can cut up and log a file way fast than I can log and capture a tape.

    Its just ecconomics of scale and using the hardware to do the work.

    I teach Post houses and Broadcasters in and around London and the UK and VTR capture (rather than ingest) is a rare occurance nowadays.

     

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  VET

     

    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet.co.uk | W www.vet.co.uk |


    Media Composer V8.2 Review Background Render

    -

    Follow me on Twitter Pat_H_VET

  • Mon, Dec 31 2018 3:13 PM In reply to

    • Adrian Redmond
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, May 28 2014
    • Channel 6 Television Denmark
    • Posts 176
    • Points 2,465

    Re: VTR hardware control when logging/capturing

    Hi Pat,

    Thanks for your input - I agree with your observations about VTR's, but not the conclusion :) Avid already has the optimal settings for dozens of different VTR's and these can be edited in the logging/capture tool to match the deck to the system as best as possible. I regularly log/capture from 1"-C format, digibeta, HDCAM and U-Matic - plus other formats, and the decks have widely differing ballistics and capabilities, and all work rather well with Avid using the logging/capture tool or VTR GUI tool or the keyboard J-K-L - so if Artist transport, when controlling source and record veiwers, simply mimic's the J-K-L and other mapped keyboad commands, there is no reason why it cannot do the same for a VTR - in this way, Avid doesn't even need to know if the J-K-L command is coming from the keyboard, the loggin/Capture tool or Artist Transport - and actually, unlike the other tools, Transport/Eucon allows one to set the different speed steps of the J-K-L mimic when configuring the Transport wheel. So all that's missing the the ability for Avid to allow transport to follow all active viewers, including the VTR control of the logging/Capture tool.

    IMHO :)

     

    Avid Media Composer v. 8.5.3. with Symphony Option on HP Z820 Dual Intel E5-2640 6-core HT 2.5GHz CPU 32GB RAM NVidia Quadro K4000 Graphics on Win7x64... [view my complete system specs]

    Adrian Redmond
    Owner / Producer / Editor
    Channel 6 Television Denmark

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