Latest post Tue, Jun 19 2018 4:20 PM by Obscure. 21 replies.
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  • Tue, Jun 5 2018 11:11 PM

    • Lun
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    4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    Hi everybody, this is my firt post and I'm writing because I have a big doubt about the best workflow to use for my next project. Let me just say that I am a Junior Editor and still have a lot to learn about Avid. I'm about to to edit a short film, I don't have the footage yet but the Production told me that it has been filmed with two cameras and two different frame rates. Camera A is a Blackmagic (don't know if Cinema Camera, Ursa or Ursa mini) and shot in ProRes 4K UHD 3840x2160 at 24fps, and  camera B is a blackmagic Cinema Pocket same resolution and codec, but in 25fps same, both aspect ratio are in 16:9 but they said it was framed for 2:35, probably they want to add black bands in the final edit. The final edit must be in 24fps. I will edit on my iMac 5k 3.2GHZ ICore I5, 24GB 1867, Graphics AMD Radeon R9 M380 2048 MB and the latest version of Avid MC. The files will be on an external USB3 hard drive at 7200rpm. I have never worked in 4K, so my question is: wich workflow would be better to use? I would like to avoid my computer to go slow and struggle during the editing. Someone suggest me to use Proxies and then relink and export after loading the raw files. Again, I never work with proxies and don't have a clear idea about how to relink to the original footage when the edit is complete. I have read that proxies are not the best option when working with different framerates. Can you give any advise? Also, if I work with proxies, what should I give to the colorist? I'm not really sure about that either. I'll enormously appreciate any help and recommendation that anybody will be able to give. Thanks
  • Wed, Jun 6 2018 1:13 PM In reply to

    • RalphC
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    I'm moving this to Avid MC Mac, this section is for the MC|First version.

     

     

    Thanks,

    RalphC

    This is a test. Media Composer 8.8 w/Symphony option, HP Envy 17t-j100 Quad Edition laptop, Windows 10 Pro, Intel Core i7 2.4GHz, 16 GB RAM, nVidia GeForce... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Jun 6 2018 4:50 PM In reply to

    • Obscure
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    Personally, I would suggest that you generate proxy files to edit with. You can either do this in Avid, or Resolve is another popular choice. DNxHR LB 1080p should be sufficient. When you generate your proxy files, you should ensure that the frame rate, timecode and source file name matches your master files (do not convert any frame rates at this point). You can quickly and efficiently check that this will work by processing a few clips and then relinking between the proxy and master files in your Avid.

    If you want to generate your proxies in Avid, then do the following...

    Make a 1080p24 project. Use source browser to link to your clips. Transcode these to DNxHR LB (if you are happy with the picture quality), use Project Dimensions, Source Frame Rate. This will generate DNxHR LB media for you without any frame rate conversions.

    In terms of handling the mixed frame rates, you can then use Source Settings > Playback Rates to tell your 25fps material to play back at 24fps. You must do this before you start cutting sequences! When you come to conform your final timeline, you must then also perform the same playback rates function on your 25fps master clips before you relink to your sequence.

    To test this will relink at the end, drop a few of your proxy files onto a timeline (best use a mix of the 24fps and speed changed 25fps material). Export a Guide Picture for reference. Then highlight your linked source media master clips. Relink your sequence to the source media using the 'selected clips in all open bins' option. Everything should now relink back to the source files and match your guide picture.

    In terms of finishing, once you have conformed your final sequence, your colourist could then take a flattened Pro Res HQ export and AAF/EDL to put the cuts back in, or depending on how conform-savvy they are, it isn't impossible to re-conform to the source material in Resolve, even if you have a mixture of 24fps and 25fps sources.

    You haven't mentioned audio in your original post. This could complicate things as your 25fps material will be running 4% faster and could now be out of sync with any externa sound rushes. Perhaps have a chat to your sound recordist if required, as there are ways and means of converting sound rushes to match speed changed picture.

    Just test this carefully at each stage and you should be fine

  • Thu, Jun 7 2018 8:36 PM In reply to

    • Lun
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    Hi Ralph,

    I'm sorry for my late reply and thanks to moving me in different section.

     

     

  • Sun, Jun 10 2018 6:21 PM In reply to

    • Lun
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    Hi Obscure,

    First of all let me thank you for your reply and sorry if I could answer only right now.

    Yesterday I finally met the director and one of the producers who gave me all the footage.

    The footage, as I wrote before, is shot with two cameras. A and B plus some drone footage for the final scene, but this time I have the right codecs:

    Camera A .mov file 2048 × 1152 in Apple ProRes 4444 24 fps (Blackmagic Ursa)

    Camera B series of .dng files 2400 x 1350 25fps (with a Blackmagic Cinema) 

    Drone camera is in 4k HD 4096 × 2160 H.264 no audio.

    I'm going working with Avid in proxy workflow on a 24fps timeline. Project setting 2k 2048 × 1152 in 24 fps.

    My question is: can I convert the camera B + Drone in DaVinci first as Apple ProRes 4444 files at 25fps and after when I have all the footage at the same codec bnu different framerates do the proxy on Avid? Would that be ok?

    I will also set the playback of the clips at 24fps on the timeline. This is because I would prefer to keep the master clips and then do the Relink on Avid as you recommended.

    Also, all the footage on the camera B in dng is 25fps and has audio. Following your steps in the previews message, I might have found a sound recordist that can convert and sync the audio from 25fps to 24fps to be in sync on Avid timeline.

    Is this the correct procedure or am I missing something?

    Thanks in advance for your precious help

  • Mon, Jun 11 2018 9:26 AM In reply to

    • Obscure
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    As you suggested, for the 'B' Camera DNG's, you will need to use Resolve to make intermediate files. Your suggestion of Pro Res 4444 at source frame rate and resolution should be fine. Just be aware that as your Pro Res 4444 files will be your new master source, you may need to tweak the metadata (camera raw settings) of the DNG files to ensure that you aren't clipping on your output. I believe that there is also a 'highlight recovery' for DNG sources from BlackMagic Camera's - YMMV with this setting, so it might be worth testing this!

    Your Avid can link directly to the h.264 Drone material, so personally, I would ingest this directly into your avid at DHxHR LB source framerate. Making new Pro Res 4444 masters via Resolve won't improve the quality and the files will be over 1TB per hour at 4K! 4K h.264 will be slow to transcode, so you could make selects subclips first (from the linked clips) and then just transcode what you think you will actually use! As this material is 4096x2160 (17:9), you will want to change the 'Reformat' setting to 'Center Crop' so that your Avid is taking a 16:9 center cut from this footage, rather than squashing a 17:9 image into a 16:9 frame. The Refomat setting can be enabled in a bin and clips changed in bulk.

    With regards to the Audio, you will need to manually sync any footage that has been speed-changed from 25 to 24fps but I assume that you won't have that much material, so hopefully won't take too long!

    Honestly, there are a lot of variables here and I would suggest that you test each of these steps carefully to ensure that you are happy with the process! Hope this all goes smoothly for you.

  • Mon, Jun 11 2018 4:07 PM In reply to

    • Lun
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    Hi Obscure,

    Thanks again for your feedbacks. I really appreciated your help.

    I will try to follow every steps carefully.

    Please, I have another question about the aspect ratio on this setting project. They said to have shooted in 16:9  but framed for 2:35.I  They say to did it to allowed me to crop each clip that being 2:35.1

    With a resolution from camera A 2k 2048 × 1152 and camera B 2k 2400 x 1350. It still that would be possible? Can I do the crop on Avid from the Sourse setting and exported the final draft at 2:35.1 apect ratio?

    With regards to the Audio I am having  already some problem. I was spoken with the sound design and he can't managed to convert the picture to 24fps but in somehow can only the to conver the audio file. He had best converter software and he tried everything but nothing works.

    Each video clip had reference audio from camera, could be that the problem?

    Should I converted the master video files again on Davinci but this time would be better on a set  24fps timeline? 

    With only the audio that it was possible to convert, can I sync and speed the picture of each clip straight on Avid? Or should I do with different software? In total they are around 100 clips.

    Do I missing something?

    I'm sorry for all my questions but it's the first time I work with this kind of workflow and I am learning new things. I would prefer to do every step correctly. Especially with AMA link on Avid.

    Thanks again for your help.

    x

     

     

  • Mon, Jun 11 2018 4:25 PM In reply to

    • Obscure
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    You can work in a 16:9 project and apply a 2.35:1 mask on the timeline as an effect (best on a filler track above your entire sequence), or you can apply the mask in the project format tab - no need to change any 'source settings' to achive this. This will allow you to 'rack' your 16:9 material up or down within the 2.35:1 frame to hide boom mic's or re-frame for other creative reasons.

    With regards to your audio, it sounds like you have reference audio included in your 'B' camera rushes. If this audio is final quality' and you don't have a better quality external recording, then you should just be able to process at 25fps (to Pro Res in Da vinci) and then ask your avid to playback at 24fps via source settings. No need to run any additional audio processes if this is the case. If you have 'final quality' audio on a separate recorder (as .wav's or .aiffs) then your sound operator should convert these to 24fps and then you will have to import and manually sync these in the Avid.

  • Mon, Jun 11 2018 7:44 PM In reply to

    • Lun
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    Hi Obscure,

    Thanks for your advise.

    I will test everything step by step and let you know. :)

     

  • Fri, Jun 15 2018 11:31 AM In reply to

    • Lun
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    Hi Obscure,

    If you could reply I would have another question.

    I did already with my sound operator the conversion from 25fps to 24fps on the separate quality audio.

    I have now on Avid the proxy ready only from the master video file.

    What should I do with the audio?

    Should I import the audio instead to Linking? 

    Should I Import and make the audio duplicate, and than  with the duplicate sync the proxy?

    Remember that I have to playback frame each clip because all the 25fps the have audio as well.

    I just do not know what it's best to organize the files and not to have problems with the relink afterwards.

    Please, I look forward to hearing from you.

    Thanks in advance for always your huge help.

    Best,

    Luna

  • Fri, Jun 15 2018 12:01 PM In reply to

    • Obscure
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    okay, so now you have speed changed 24fps audio (I assume as .wav/,aif file) and speed changed 24fps media in your avid.

    I would import the audio rather than link it. When you import the audio, it may ask you to associate a frame rate with it, I would chose 24fps at this point. As you have said, importing the audio will make a duplicate of this media onto your media drive (within Avid MediaFiles > MXF). You will then have to manually sync this audio to the video in the Avid project which will create subclips. I doubt that you will be able to autosync as the timecodes probably won't match now that you have speed changes to 24fps.

    Importing the audio should be a 'one-time' operation as you can work with your audio at finishing quality, so no need to coform it later down the line. Just make sure that you import it at 48k and with a bit depth that matches the source file (either 16 or 24 bit). If your workflow involves exporting an AAF (for an external dub), you should export this before you start the conform process.

    This means that when the time comes, you will only need to conform your video files. I hope this helps. Your workflow is a bit unorthodox (it isn't conventional to shoot two different frame rates) but from what you have described, this process should get you to where you want to be.

  • Fri, Jun 15 2018 12:15 PM In reply to

    • Lun
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    Your workflow is a bit unorthodox (it isn't conventional to shoot two different frame rates) but from what you have described, this process should get you to where you want to be. "

    I agreed with you.

    It's all a bit of mess and try to make it right. Unfortunately I wasn't in the production set. I got the project how it was.

    Thanks again for all your help and advise.

    Cross fingers should will be all fine.

     

    All best,

    Lu x

     

  • Sun, Jun 17 2018 1:15 AM In reply to

    • Lun
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    Hi Obscure,

    If you can help me I neeed another advise.

    I am not sure i did something wrong.

    They were my steps:

    Project master in 2k 2048x1152 16:9 but framed for 2:35.1 resolution.

    -I SET THE PROJECT ON AVID A 2K 2048X858 2:39.1 Cinemascope on my timeline setting(it was the only option for cinemascope, I thought it was a right idea because the final export would be colored on davinci, the colorist shoul get the AAf where contain the master resolution in 16:9, so it can export in 2:35.1 instead of 2:39.1).

    -I link the AMA original master clip.

    -I transcoded the AMA in proxy.

    -Change from source setting frame flex each proxy clips and after  to do the same for each AMA clips in 2:35.1  and "center crop"reformat, plus changing the playback for the 25fps.clip about the audio.

    -I Synced the proxy with Imported audio.

    -I open a sequence put some synced proxy

    -I relinked the sequence.

    -I exported the relink sequence in AAF, to check on Davinci.

    -the final export from davinci the custom aspect ratio of 2:35.1 it's coming with 2 small black mask on top and down the picture.

    So, I thought the problem was the 2:39.1 project setting and I tried again with different avid project setting like 16:9 or 1:90.1. timeline, but nothing works.

    - Unfortunaly on Avid setting doesn't exist  2:35.1 and 2:39.1 is the only cinemascope option.

    I did anything wrong?

    What should I do?

    The final export resolution should be in 2K 2048x871 2:35.1. How can I get this resolution? How should I set my avid project? Can I custom the setting project?

    I look forward to hearing from you.

    Thanks in advance. x

     

  • Sun, Jun 17 2018 11:43 AM In reply to

    • Obscure
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    Just so that I understand correctly, It sounds like you have conformed this sequence back to the master source (ProRes4444) in a Da Vinci Resolve system. You have then graded your film and exported a file from Resolve that is you 'graded master.' If this is the case, then we can dis-regard everything that you have done prior to Resolve.

    I have some questions...

    What is the resolution of the file from Resolve? 

    Does the file from Resolve have the correct mask (2.35:1) baked into the picture, or are you attempting to apply the correct mask in your Avid?

    If your final output resolution is 2048x871, then we aren't really applying a mask at all, we just want to crop the mask from your file so that all you are left with is a 'cut out' of your film at that resolution with no mask applied. Your output file isn't really masked to 2.35:1, it would only be masked to 2.35:1 if it were in a 16x9 2048x1152 frame. Is that correct, or I have completley miunderstood what you have said?

    If that above point is correct (and that's a big 'if'), then in theory, you should be able to make a custom project at 2048x871. You can then link-to your graded master. Assuming your graded master is 2048x1152 with a 2.35:1 mask baked in, then in source settings, set this to 'center-crop' and you *should* be good to go.

    I don't have access to an Avid today so I can't actually test any of this myself. I will have access to an Avid tomorrow though. Hope this helps - you sure have picked a tough assgnment for your first Avid job!

     

  • Sun, Jun 17 2018 4:49 PM In reply to

    • Lun
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    Re: 4K workflow with different frame rates footage

    Hi Obscure,

    Thank for your kind reply.

    I might have explained myself badly. I'll try again.

    As you already know the entire project it has been shoted with 3 different cameras at different resolution and frame rate. 

    -The camera A is mov. 24fps Apple ProRes 4444 2k2048x1152 16:9 but framed at 2:35.1 with an extern video monitor reference.

    -The camera B is dng. 25fps 2k2400x1350 16:9 but framed at 2:35.1 with an extern video monitor reference.

    -drone camera is 23.976fps 4k 4096x2160 1.90.1 aspect ratio.

    Outoput for final export need to be in Apple ProRes 2k 2048x871 2:35.1 24fps

    My steps:

    -First I converted on davinci the camera B clips from .dng to .mov at them apple ProRes.

    -I gave to my sound operator only the sound at 25fps and asked him to convert it at 24fps.

    -I opened the project on Avid setting project 2K DCI Scope 2048x858 2:39.1 24p, Color space YCbCr 709 (the color space I didn't touched, it came like that). Maybe this is wrong. should I custom at the resolution 2048x871 for 2:35.1? I've seen too late this option

    -I open a bin where I AMA linked all the clips together.

    -I imported the audio in a bin and choose the optios - audio - and checked all the following : sample rate convert source sample rate to project sample rate- do not convert source with pull up and down rates speed and duration will change from source- convert source bit depth to project bit depth- autodected broadcast wave monophonic groups.

    -In the bin AMA,  I changed the playback on all the clips 25fps to 24fps and change all clips frameflex at 2:35.1 reformat to "center crop",  plus after I add columns Tape Id, Scene, take and named them, this process before transcoding the clips in Proxy.

    -Transcoded to Proxy in source 1/4, keep source frame rate, DNxHR LB Mxf, half better quality.

    - I duplicated the proxy to rename scene/slate/take before doing the sync with audio, named the audio imported as same of the proxy. ( here I don't know I did right) Should I name them as the same the AMA before transcoded them? Or should I named only the clip synced? Named will facilitates my workflow  for editing after.

    -I change the proxy frameflex and the playback before sync.

    -I made some test, I tried immediately with a clip at 25fps and after manually synking on a timeline the audio from the camera still don't sync with the separate wav audio. So I removed the audio camera but I would prefer not to do that.

    -I did the same in some others clips with different resolution and different frame rate. To see also if the relink it will work.

    -I made some quick cut and export an AAF just to try on Resolve to see if it is linked to the proxy files.

    - Then I tried to relink the same sequence and export an AAF again, opened it on Resolve to see if it links to the original file, but it still links to the proxy files. Which means the relink didn't work. 

    I'm doing some small test but nothing works.

    The relink sequence on Davinci links to the proxy files as stated before. The final export in 2048x871 it's coming with 2 small 5-6mm black bands on top and bottom of the picture. I attached a picture below  to show you.

    I don't want any mask but only an export at 2:35.1 aspect ratio.

    I will not colour, I will give that to a colorist. this is why I'm doing some test and check just before starting the editing. I want to do everything right to not have surprise after. I am using Davinci only to check that the relink process works on Avid.

    Is there a way to check if the relink works on Avid?

    I never relink before for a proxy workflow and at this point I do not know if I'm doing everything right.

    Did I do something wrong with the following steps?

    Rename clips  and columns with scene,slate and take, can complicate things?

    In a proxy worflow can I organise synced shots in bins and still relink the master clips?

    If my final export project need to be uniform at this resolution of 2048x871 2:35.1. Should I do the same on the setting project when I start on Avid?

    How I will find out the relink works on Avid?

    Sorry to all my questions, I just try to find solutions.

    I hope I explained myself better.

    Thanks in advance.

    Luna x

     

    P.S. don't worry about replying late, whenever you can will be fine. I'll keep making tests in the meantime. 

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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