Latest post Sat, Apr 21 2018 11:41 AM by Job ter Burg. 3 replies.
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  • Sun, Apr 8 2018 10:01 PM

    35mm Short film, DCP delivery - Project Creation - 24/23.98 - HD or 2K ?

    Hi, 

    Thank you for taking a look, guidance would be greatly appreciated.

    I'm starting a short film project, shot on 35mm. The lab kindly delivered two sets of files: One 2K ProRes 4444 Raw Set, and an HD ProResHQ Graded Set (One Light). The raw files are of the full aperture.

    VLC Current Media information reports for the 2K raw files:

    Apple ProRes 4444 (ap4h) mov files, with Video resolution: 2112x1232, Buffer dimensions: 2112x1248, Frame rate: 24 (not 23.98; i double-checked with another unrelated file, where 23.98 was displayed).

    For the HD graded files:

    Apple ProRes 422 HQ (apch) mov files, Video resolution: 1920x1080, Buffer dimensions: 1920x1088, Frame rate: 24.

    The audio files are wav files, Audio channels: 5 to 6, Sample Rate: 48,000; Bits per sample: 24.

    Sadly, I don't know if the film camera on-set was set to 24fps or 23.98. Most likely it was 24, but not 100% sure.

    I plan to use the 2k raw files for the edit, to AMA-link them and then transcode them.

    When creating the project, I am not sure if I should go for the HD or 2K Project Format setting and whether I should select 23.98fps or 24fps. 

    The project was shot in Europe, I am currently in the US. I don't know yet where the sound post-production/mixing will take place. The color grade will be done at a US color grading house in NYC.

    I have read that choosing the wrong fps at Avid Project Creation can lead to severe issues down the line. 

    I plan to edit the project and then, hopefully, to deliver it digitally to film festivals, I am assuming as a DCP. I have no plans to do a film-out.

    I don't understand how the 23.98fps vs 24fps question pertains to DCP and international film festivals and potential international digital delivery. I am guessing a DCP Projector will just play back a DCP, regardless if it's 24 or 23.98. But how does someone choose then b/w these two settings, if a project is not clearly US or Europe only, but rather international? I just read that 24fps DCP is more common, thought to be more 'film like'?

    In regards to HD/2K: I would like to work with the higher resolution of 2K in the edit, because it might allow me to zoom in a bit for certain shots and maintain more quality than if I had been editing on HD proxies. I prefer seeing the visual fidelity of 2K during the edit, so I can visually gauge if I can zoom in a bit. Is it okay/advisable to choose 2K at project creation and then AMA-link, transcode and then, at the end, export in either HD or 2K?

    Also, I may go back to the lab for a 4K scan of the selects. What settings / workflow options do I need to choose now so that I can supply the lab with the "timings" (?) of my final sequence, so that they can scan do the 4K scans and so that I can then "re-link" (?) my final sequence with the new 4K selects?

     

    Thanks again for taking a look. 

     

  • Mon, Apr 9 2018 6:39 AM In reply to

    Re: 35mm Short film, DCP delivery - Project Creation - 24/23.98 - HD or 2K ?

    localmonocle:
    The project was shot in Europe
    Chances are, they shot at 24.000fps then.

    localmonocle:
    I don't know if the film camera on-set was set to 24fps or 23.98.

    You will need to find this out.

    One way to do it is to check it is to open a 24.000fps project, take one fairly long clip with dialogue, sync it, and play it. If it stays in perfect sync for over one or two minutes, it is indeed 24.000fps.

    localmonocle:
    I plan to use the 2k raw files for the edit, to AMA-link them and then transcode them.
    I'd probably go for the one-light graded set you were provided. You can always relink/conform to the 2K RAWs later. In the meantime, you'll at least have some basic starting point for how the image looks.

    localmonocle:
    The color grade will be done at a US color grading house in NYC.
    They will likely do a conform themselves, so another reason to go with the ProRes set for now.

    localmonocle:
    I don't understand how the 23.98fps vs 24fps question pertains to DCP and international film festivals and potential international digital delivery. I am guessing a DCP Projector will just play back a DCP, regardless if it's 24 or 23.98.

    DCP's are never 23.976, always 24.000fps (or sometimes 25.000fps). When people shoot and post in 23.976, they end up pulling the film up from 23.976 to 24.000 for digital cinema delivery, regardless of the territory.

    In the old days, you might have had an issue where sound post or the music department would need 23.976, but I would not expect any of this to be a problem these days.

    localmonocle:
    In regards to HD/2K: I would like to work with the higher resolution of 2K in the edit, because it might allow me to zoom in a bit for certain shots and maintain more quality than if I had been editing on HD proxies.
    Those few lines are not going to make enough of a difference (if any) to warrant that workflow. In my opinion.

    localmonocle:
    I need to choose now so that I can supply the lab with the "timings" (?) of my final sequence, so that they can scan do the 4K scans and so that I can then "re-link" (?) my final sequence with the new 4K selects?

    An EDL export of your sequence should suffice. Also, usually, in situations like that, you'll work in proxies, send an EDL to the lab, and then the grading house will conform your sequence using the selected 4K scans.

     

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Apr 20 2018 4:52 PM In reply to

    Re: 35mm Short film, DCP delivery - Project Creation - 24/23.98 - HD or 2K ?

    @Job ter Burg: Thank you very much for your detailed post and your help, I really appreciate it.

    It seems the camera was set to 24FPS. 

    I appreciate your advice, but I would like to do my own little color-correction on the raw files while editing, just for my purposes to play around with the way the image looks. 

    I would take your advice about creating an HD1080 project instead of 2K. But I would ama-link to the 4K raw files and transcode them in Avid. Would this be okay to do and not mess the project up permanently later on in the post-production workflow? The Raw files are of the full aperture, so I assume I would be losing a bit of quality when I transcode to 1080p and set a mask to get the proper framing. Is this tolerable? 

    Also, there is a "Film" setting when creating a project in Avid. I tried googling what it does, but only found an article that just mentioned the option, but didn't specify its actual effects. Should I select it? I know the project was shot on 3-perf, and there is a 35mm 3-perf option when selecting "Film" at Project Creation.

    Thanks again for taking a look.

     

     

  • Sat, Apr 21 2018 11:41 AM In reply to

    Re: 35mm Short film, DCP delivery - Project Creation - 24/23.98 - HD or 2K ?

    If you do the transcodes, the color grading will likely be off, unless they worked against either a standard LUT or if they provide you with custom LUTs to apply to the RAWs. From what you describe, they already did a grading pass on the proxies, which can be quite useful, obviously. Double check with whoever provided those proxies that they carry the necessary metadata. Usually Card/Clip number (filename) and timecode should be enough to conform from the 4K RAWs later.

    The 35mm Film options box in MC allows you to use Perf Slip so that you can adjust sync in 1/4 frame increments. It also allows you to track Ink Numbers, Keykodes, etc., often used in Film Workflows (some of these counters can be included in an aLE from the scanning house). It also means you cannot trim past the end of any subclip (as it assumes metadata to change there). No harm in ticking it. Although you may not need Keykode etc. (pretty much a legacy workflow to generate cutlists for negative cutting), and there’s now a sync slip feature in source settings.

     

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
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