Latest post Fri, Mar 9 2018 11:37 PM by SR555. 63 replies.
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  • Tue, Feb 20 2018 1:43 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Ok  will try to resolve this first in Avid, but will do some tests in Premiere as well.

    Time to relink. I'm going in...

     

     

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Feb 20 2018 8:32 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    If you want to deinterlace, it all depends on how you do it. Changing the AMA settings does not actually deinterlace. It merely marks the media as progressive or not. Marking a deinterlaced clips as progressive will display interlaced artifacts as it indiactes to play back the scan lines in order. It doesn't fix anything; it makes it worse.

    You shouldn't be seeing field jumps in the material. The only time something like this might happen is 24P material encoded for DVD. To extend a 24P to play back at 29.97i the frames are split into fields and then repeated using a 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 cadence. This results in some frames composed of the even fields from one frame and the odd fields from the next. Given the source material, this would be an unusual case. Your chart does not show the FPS for the clips.

    A really good tool that I'd recommend downloading is MediaInfo (https://MediaArea.net/en/MediaInfo). It can dump the info for pretty much every media format out there. If you use it, choose the Tree option to display; it provides the easiest way to view the data.

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC(generally the latest or the one just before), MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Thu, Feb 22 2018 9:52 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Thx

    I got called away to another matter for a few days adn am back to the project now.  Will follow up.

     

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:14 AM In reply to

    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    DStone:

     

    A really good tool that I'd recommend downloading is MediaInfo (https://MediaArea.net/en/MediaInfo). It can dump the info for pretty much every media format out there. If you use it, choose the Tree option to display; it provides the easiest way to view the data.

    Interesting I prefer the HTML display option. But will look at the tree option :-)

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

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  • Fri, Feb 23 2018 3:05 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Pat Horridge:
    Interesting I prefer the HTML display option. But will look at the tree option :-)
    Given all the options, it's pretty much jsut a matter of preference. Regardless of choice, it's a good tool. GSpot is stil a good tool as well. It has the advantage of showing the chain of filters and processors used to actually display a piece of media. Very good for finding out if there's some strange CODEC interfering.

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC(generally the latest or the one just before), MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Fri, Feb 23 2018 3:47 PM In reply to

    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    DStone:

    Pat Horridge:
    Interesting I prefer the HTML display option. But will look at the tree option :-)
    Given all the options, it's pretty much jsut a matter of preference. Regardless of choice, it's a good tool. GSpot is stil a good tool as well. It has the advantage of showing the chain of filters and processors used to actually display a piece of media. Very good for finding out if there's some strange CODEC interfering.

     

    Did a google for Gspot. Boy did I learn a lot! but little about codecs...

     

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  VET

     

    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet.co.uk | W www.vet.co.uk |


    Media Composer V8.2 Review Background Render

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    Follow me on Twitter Pat_H_VET

  • Fri, Feb 23 2018 11:48 PM In reply to

    • jwrl
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    I'm sure you did learn a lot!  So did I!

    The problem with the codec version of Gspot is that it hasn't been developed in over ten years as far as I can tell, while MediaInfo development as far as I'm aware is still active.

    MC 7.0.4 - Asus P6T Deluxe V2 mobo - Intel i7 920 2.66GHz - Windows 7 Ult64 SP1 - nVidia Quadro FX 1800 - 16 Gbyte low latency DDR3 RAM - Internal 8 Tb... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Feb 24 2018 11:50 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

     Starting the step by step troubleshoot.

     

    Issue#1: (more tests to come) -

    Progressive, (set properly in source settings), movment forward every two frames.

    On DVD, interlace artifacts and (vertical offset) ghosting/jumping of letters. On the quicktime output but worse on DVD. Source file is fine.

    One thing that jumps out at me is that a number of these clips are heights other than 480.   For instance, 712x478, 714x478, 720x486 (that was one I output).

    Could this also have to do with the fact that the source material is h264, with sizes such as 696x480, 638 x 480, AMA'd in?  ( note: Media info says 702x480 on same file, Avid detects it as 696x480).   Maybe Avid just can't handle the AMA on these?

     The source files for the progressive sources-there are lots of them- are long, about two hours each so re-encoding would require a lot of space.  Pulling out the small segments that are used would lose the ability to AMA link to the sequence and would essentially be a re-edit.  Not quite sure what the best approach is.

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Feb 25 2018 10:05 PM In reply to

    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    FWIW for Standard Def I always used an Interlace Avid project and I have never had a problem with Importing (not linking) progressive clips into interlace projects.   This is my preference as the output file for DVD needs to be interlace. 

    My progressive sources have always come from film transfers. They started life as true progressive frames scans that were converted to video. Result is that each video field is made from half  the horizontal scan lines (every second line from a static full frame.  The result is that when I stepped through the clip by fields I would see each image twice before stepping forward.  The first and second filed would be identical horizontally but you may notice a slight vertical flicker as the first field only consists or every second horizontal line. 2, 4, 6 ...  and the second 1, 3, 5 ...  for NTSC lower field first.

    Understanding this is important for any SD project that may output for DVD (which is an interlace format.) Whilst MC MAY handle progressive correctly you KNOW you have handled it correctly when you import into an interlace project with the correct field order set.

    Then manually set this field order for MC output and again on input to the Encoder you use to convert DVD format.

    You MAY still get issues if your progressive sources were originally encoded to progressive from interlace sources that had Upper field first (HD or PAL) media. In this scenario you source media would be fine but converting it to interlace will result in reversing the field order.

  • Sun, Feb 25 2018 10:53 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Thanks Andrew =)   .... A few questions:

    1) So if I understand correctly, try and see if there's a vertical difference in frame 1 and frame 2, and flag it in the source settings as interlaced with a field order, rather than progressive?  Is that correct?

    If these were pulled from the same batch of DVDs, then yes they were upper field first in their orignal incarnation before being transcoded to h264.   

    2) If you receieved a collection of different vertical and horizontal sizes as described above, esp. the ones iwth the 478 height, how would you handle the ama on that?  It would be space-prohibitive to transcode them.  Could that cause it to not deinterlace properly?

    It's notable to mention that the first section is all 480 high and still has the jumping letters issue.  

    Also, would a problem upstream, say a 478 height a few sections in, continue to cause interlacing problems downstream, say halfway through the video?  Or just for that clip? 

    3)  What is the definitve proper way to handle the 486 project/480 footage and 480 file for DVD issue?   Output with project dimensions 720x480 instead of 486?  Ouput as 486 and crop in squeeze?  Do nothing because the program itself handles it?  If manual crop, where and when?

     

     

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Feb 26 2018 2:24 AM In reply to

    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    SR555:
    So if I understand correctly, try and see if there's a vertical difference in frame 1 and frame 2, and flag it in the source settings as interlaced with a field order, rather than progressive?  Is that correct?
    Partly.  A video frame is a set duration for the Project Format, (a 24th of a second (Film) a 29.97th of a second for a NTSC frame etc.

    Using Film as an example
    A progressive frame is a 24th of a second long and all horizontal scan line are present for the duration.
    An interlace frame is the same length but it is split into 2 FIELDS each one being 48th of a second long but having only alternate horizontal scan lines. (Field 1 reads lines 2. 4, 6 ... and a 48th of a second later Field 2 reads 1, 3, 5 ...)   If there is movement across the frame in this time the object has moved drom the start of scanning field 1 so every second line is not in the exact alignment with the first line. This is why a full frame (both fields) of interlace media will often look fuzzy when the timeline is parked. Because of the way our eyes see it in play mode horizontal motion is perceived to be smoother with interlace.

    Conversely a progressive Frame does not have fields and all scan lines are displayed for the full 24th of a second.

    If you have got your head around that then you can understand that if someone made progressive frames from interlace frames they commonly bake in both interlace fields. So the frame looks like paused interlace .)   One step further if the original person uses upper field first to make the progressive FRAME and you output the progressive as lower field first the horizontal displacement of the alternate lines between the fields is reversed. (effectively One step forward 2 back)

    The small vertical jump when advancing in fields shows mainly as alternately cutting off tops and bottoms of objects. for example instead of seeing horizontal lines 50, 51, 52 and 53 in a progressive frame the interlace field shows 50 and 52 then the next field 51 and 53.  

    2: When things get complicated I stay away from AMA.   We are talking about SD. At DV quality 1 hour uses about 12 GB's of space.  So a 500 Gb USB 3 drive easily holds 40 hours of footage imported to a DV format.
    I do not work with NTSC and in PAL we only have 1 frame height.  My guess is with NTSC that range of heights will be imported properly and make no difference. All of it is taken care of in in the lines that are outside the viewing area.
    Thinking about it an option I think safest would be be to make the project 486 and in the imput option use do not resize smaller images.

     

  • Mon, Feb 26 2018 3:58 AM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Thank you.  Working on absorbing that info.   

    My source material is easily 80 hours and3/4 of that right now is m4v.  Or h264.  So I'm not sure that it would be possible to transcode that fully, so it would AMA link, due to space limitations.

    A workaround would be to pull out and transcode just the material used and just do a new re-edit of the prject, but it's two hours long and pretty involved - I can do it but it would be nice to avoid a re-edit.  

    Wondering though if AMA can handle this at all.  Maybe it's not me, maybe it's AMA.

    TEST #2 

    A clip which is progressive, m4v, AVC, 712x478, has had bad interlace artifacts in both the exported quicktime and the DVD.

    It appears to deinterlace when exporting dv25 411 straight from the sequence, source settings set both to progressive and to lower. (not tested upper yet).  However, when I mix it down and export same as source, interlacing artifacts are everywhere.   Why>  not sure yet.  

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Feb 26 2018 11:44 AM In reply to

    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    I don't understand how you are getting interlacing arteafcts in Progressive content. That just doesn't make sense.

    Are you sure they are interlacing arteafacts you are seeing and not other issues.

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  VET

     

    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet.co.uk | W www.vet.co.uk |


    Media Composer V8.2 Review Background Render

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    Follow me on Twitter Pat_H_VET

  • Mon, Feb 26 2018 1:01 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Welll the only thing I can think of this that the project is interlaced and it's adding them.  

    TEST RESULTS for Issue #2

    Ok so it appears that any field order selected in the source settings (tested at upper, lower, and progressive), for this standalone AMA progressive clip, comes out clean of interlacing artifacts when exported straight from the sequence at dv25 411.  However, when the clip is mixed down and dropped into a new sequence, the way one would do when finishing a project, the interlacing artifacts appear at any field setting, the same way they did when the larger timeline was mixed and exported.   

    These are on the quicktime exports and have not yet been tested on a DVD.


    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Feb 26 2018 2:14 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Right now the project is AMA linked to sometimes subclips, sometimes the source clips.  Is there a way to do a sort of reverse-relink by transcoding only the media I have used  in the actual sequence, to new DNX50 clips, so everything matches, relinking it to where the AMA clips are now?  Then mixing that down?   Maybe this project just hates mixed AMA formats.

    The source files are too long to deal with transcoding, and new subclips would require a re-edit. 

    The former .new draft clips are long gone and not relevant to this version of the project.

    I just need to get this thing out in usable form.   If Avid is adding weirdness in the mixdown maybe the problem is Avid?

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
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