Latest post Sat, Jun 20 2015 6:07 PM by ripvanmarlowe. 15 replies.
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  • Tue, May 26 2015 9:07 AM

    • S.Clements
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    Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    EDLs can't handle all the complex effects of modern edits and often can't handle retimings created in Avid.  Why do colurists insist on them? They are riddled with errors and things need to be created from scratch, by eye.  Why would anyone conform by an edl when they have a perfectly good AAF?  I'm very puzzled by this.  

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  • Tue, May 26 2015 5:44 PM In reply to

    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    Not all conform setups handle AAF. Resolve and Baslight do, several others do not. Also, not all conform solutions handle all effects from AAF.

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  • Tue, May 26 2015 5:55 PM In reply to

    • S.Clements
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    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    Job ter Burg:

    Not all conform setups handle AAF. Resolve and Baslight do, several others do not. Also, not all conform solutions handle all effects from AAF.

    I've actually been asked for an edl by a Baselight colourist.  I know Resolve and Nucoda handle AAFs pretty well.  What if you have an Avid project loaded with tons of resizes and other effects, will a colourist using an EDL have to recreate all the effects by hand/eye?  Or will they just grade the footage without effects and retimes and give you back mxf clips for you to put back into Avid to apply the effects on the graded clips?

    EDLs don't seem to handle certain retimings and the clips are short when relinked to the EDL.

     

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  • Tue, May 26 2015 6:39 PM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    S.Clements:

    Job ter Burg:

    Not all conform setups handle AAF. Resolve and Baslight do, several others do not. Also, not all conform solutions handle all effects from AAF.

    I've actually been asked for an edl by a Baselight colourist. .............

     Or will they just grade the footage without effects and retimes and give you back mxf clips for you to put back into Avid to apply the effects on the graded clips?

    Some info about Baselight BLG files below, to watch when you have the time, there are lot more info on their site

    http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/resources/video/baselight/FLT-BL-0004-Baselight-1.php

     

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    Tomas 

     

  • Tue, May 26 2015 7:15 PM In reply to

    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    S.Clements:
    What if you have an Avid project loaded with tons of resizes and other effects, will a colourist using an EDL have to recreate all the effects by hand/eye?
    Not a colorist, but a conform editor or DI editor.Sure, too many folks will think this is all automatic and require the colorist to be the conform editor. But most larger facilities appear to have a conform editor that handles the conforming prior to (and during) the colorist doing his job.

    Yes, they do these by hand. I (manually) add comments to any shots with effects in the timeline, and they can use that as a reference. After they complete their conform, they do an export/playout for me, I put that back into MC, gang source and record monitors, and manually eye-check each shot for sync and effects. Done this on every show since 2003 or so.

    S.Clements:
    I've actually been asked for an edl by a Baselight colourist.
    Could in part be because of old habits. I mean, 95% of my sound editorial teams still ask for OMF's while they mean AAF's. And even after the receive them, they still call them OMF's. And the other issue is that not all versions of BaseLight supported AAF or not too well. So if the facility is not running the latest version, they may prefer EDL's because of it.

    Oh, and EDL's are human-readable.

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  • Tue, May 26 2015 7:19 PM In reply to

    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    mjolnarn:
    Baselight BLG files
    That's not too relevant here. That's if you exchange color grading info between an actual full BaseLight station and a dailies station or a plugin versio of BaseLight.

    The workflow Scott is asking about involves the DI house doing a conform based on the original media (which is often at a higher resolution and in a different color space than the MC media used for creative editorial).

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  • Wed, May 27 2015 4:12 AM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    Job ter Burg:

    mjolnarn:
    Baselight BLG files
    That's not too relevant here.

    True, just wanted to tell that there are ways without creating and moving extra media, seemed to be a part of the question

     

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    Tomas 

     

  • Wed, May 27 2015 8:53 AM In reply to

    • S.Clements
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    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    Thanks for all the information guys.  I know that Baselight has supported AAFs, since at least 2012, because I graded a short on the Baselight at our school and conformed from AAF.  I would imagine a facility would by now be running one that supported AAF.  I was actually able to finish the entire film in Baselight and never had to go back to Avid.

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  • Fri, Jun 19 2015 11:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    They use an EDL to notch a timeline.  Many places, including some very large post houses I work at, still conform in to Baselight in a very tedious fashion.  A common workflow is for an edit assistant to perform a "Pregrade" which basically involves removing any effects, titles, etc, collapsing the sequence down on to a single layer which is then supplied to the grade either as a mixdown or as a playin from tape (HDCAM SR).  The result is a single slab of media in Baselight to which the EDL is then applied, creating all the cut points.  The show is graded and the graded material is then supplied to the online who will drop the graded footage back underneath the effects and titles etc.

    It's not pretty but it is common, sadly.

    Andi

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  • Sat, Jun 20 2015 6:38 AM In reply to

    • S.Clements
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    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    ripvanmarlowe:

    A common workflow is for an edit assistant to perform a "Pregrade" which basically involves removing any effects, titles, etc, collapsing the sequence down on to a single layer which is then supplied to the grade either as a mixdown or as a playin from tape (HDCAM SR).  The result is a single slab of media in Baselight to which the EDL is then applied, creating all the cut points.  The show is graded and the graded material is then supplied to the online who will drop the graded footage back underneath the effects and titles etc.

     

    Thanks, Andi.  I wonder how these people grade in context?  Without resizes, flops, stabilizes, etc?  I don't understand the point of using a high end system like Baselight, if you're going to work this way.

     

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  • Sat, Jun 20 2015 8:37 AM In reply to

    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    Used to be the same with Dubbing mixers. Wanted their timeline clean of offline levels etc. Now with budgets tight and time tight they often take what they can get and work from there.

    Likelwise as a colorist if you charge by the hour why make it easier. Rebuilding stuff that was there in the timeline just bumps up your timesheet.

    We've been hoping for years that folks would get smart and realise it makes more sense to use the tools and workflows in the smartest way. leaving the bulk of the time for the creative work. But we still bang our heads against the folks who feel the old low tech way must be best....

    We can do it either way. But my preference is to do it the smart way.

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  • Sat, Jun 20 2015 12:42 PM In reply to

    • S.Clements
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    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    Pat Horridge:

    But my preference is to do it the smart way.

    Agreed, Pat.

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  • Sat, Jun 20 2015 2:55 PM In reply to

    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    Pat Horridge:
    Used to be the same with Dubbing mixers. Wanted their timeline clean of offline levels etc.
    More importantly, they wanted to make sure they could conform from the originals (DAT), so they would not depend on whichever way the sound happened to have been brough into MC (e.g. via unbalanced cinch at wrong levels).

    Then since the advent of BWAV production sound recording, they worried about not having access to all tracks and all metadata. That has since been sort of sorted out. Still not ideal, but at least an AAF to PT can help them link back to the BWAVs.

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  • Sat, Jun 20 2015 5:48 PM In reply to

    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    S.Clements:
    I wonder how these people grade in context?  Without resizes, flops, stabilizes, etc?

    Effects like flop, minor resizes and stabilizes will not be removed as they don't really affect the image in any significant sense.  However, things like dips to colour, PIP effects, wipes etc will be all need the elements placed at the end to be graded seperately and then recombined.  For example with a picture in picture, there are two elements that need grading seperately so although i would leave that effect in place, I would also supply the two seperate pictures, full size, at the end of the sequence.  

    So in terms of grading in context,it's not as bad as it sounds for the colourist but in terms of man hours to make it work like this, it's totally stupid in my opinion.

    Andi

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  • Sat, Jun 20 2015 5:58 PM In reply to

    • gumbaedit
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    Re: Why do colourists still often ask for EDLs and conform from them?

    I've been conforming my own projects in Resolve using an AAF then sending it to the colorist for the last couple of years.  I know that everything has been rebuilt the way it should be and also that all issues have been fixed so that they don't need to wast the time or expense doing it.  This incluses commercials, shorts and a feature length project.  I get why big comapanies don't do it this way, but the qaulity can suffer as a result.

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