Latest post Fri, Nov 14 2014 2:46 PM by Marianna. 6 replies.
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  • Thu, Nov 13 2014 3:37 PM

    • Mike Shaw
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    Double matte problem

    Using Media Composer MC 6.04

    I am creating the illusion of someone being held in a glass jar.  The jar is being held and moved. The person inside the jar is beating at the jar.  There is a background image.

    I have the hand holding the jar, against a green screen on the top track, V3.  The green screen is masked out using the BCC ChromaKey filter.

    On the next track down, V2,  I have the clip of the man, also against a green screen.  I used Blend-Warp to resize and move/rotate him to fit within the glass jar on the V3 track, and to match the movement of the jar .  I added the BCC ChromaKey filter to mask out the green screen background

    Track V1 has the background video of course.

    The Problem is -  the background behind the man in the bottle (Track V2), seen through the masked green screen of that track,  moves with the movement of the man instead of staying in a static position as one would expect the background to do.  In other words, within the bottle itself, the background moves with the man - rather than the man moving against the background.

    I wondered if I should change the order of the effects - but see no way to do that (if in the effect editor I drag the chroma key filter above the Blend filter - I just get two chrom akey filters. (!!)  If I go to the timeline and double click to open the tracks each filter is on - they won't drag from one track to another.

    I tried things like, in the Chroma Key filter, selecting "Apply to Title Matte% and "Invert Title Matte" and so on, without success.

    Patently I'm doing things totally wrong, and have tried searching for a solution in the on-line pdf and help files without success.

    Help would be appreciated - on how to re-order nested or stacked effects and more importantly, how to prevent the masked background moving with the 'object'

     

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  • Thu, Nov 13 2014 8:57 PM In reply to

    • luca.mg
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    Re: Double matte problem

    This is a known problem with MC: the top effect affects the underneath video layers. The only way around it is to work with videomixdowns, key V2 over the background, videomixdown, lay down the mixdown on V1 and the former V3 to V2 and apply the key. This is rather unconfortable, especially if You need to change something in the effect, keep copies of the sources of the videomidown(s) so that You can make modifications if needed. You may also try to collapse V1 and V2 instead of using the videomixdown, but as far as I remember MC is so smart that it treats collapsed tracks as if they where separate video tracks and therefore the top effect affects the underneath (collapsed) layers as if they where separate video tracks.

    Symphony 2018.9, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

  • Thu, Nov 13 2014 9:48 PM In reply to

    • Mike Shaw
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    Re: Double matte problem

    Thanks for the reply and workaround, uncomfortable though it is. I find itt pretty amazing actually.

    I still have Liquid on an old hardly ever used PC - which fortunately (through laziness) is still in my home network.  That should do it without any problem - I'll just send the clips to that. Failing that, Pinnacle Studio is here somewhere too ... 

    Alternatively, would the same problem exist in Avid FX - I rarely use that but perhaps should give that a try.

    The other question still holds though - how does one change the 'batting order' of effects that are applied to a clip?

    Please don't say you load them in in the correct order to start with ... !!!  (Liquid really was ahead of its time... )

     

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  • Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:00 PM In reply to

    • luca.mg
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    Re: Double matte problem

    Mike, effects handling is one of the many MC's things that the community has been asking to improve for quite some time now, this problem with top effects affecting bottom effects is there since day one, and a fix has not arrived in over two decades, to quote You: pretty amazing. To go back to the original question, You will have to "shake" the man and videomixdown it, key it over the background and videomixdown the result in order to key the next layer over, or use another piece of software as You point out. The order of the effects is not at the core of the issue, but, assuming that You're talking about multiple effects applied to a clip with ALT-drag, nested effects in Avidese, You can rearrange the order of multiple effects stacked on top of a clip by stepping into the nest and opening with the effect editor the effects of the stack, drag them to a bin and delete them from the nest, rearrange at will.

    Symphony 2018.9, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

  • Fri, Nov 14 2014 2:39 AM In reply to

    • Mondo
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    Re: Double matte problem

    well that's not the only workaround! You could composite the whole thing inside of Avid FX.

    Really these jobs are better handled by a compositing program anyway where you have the ability to motion track and add other subleties like lighting etc to "sell" the effect.

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    John

    Can we go back to the way audio nodes used to be selected? Please? ie if you have audio nodes at the same time on selected tracks; then selecting 1 audio node selects them all at that time. Having to shift select nodes or add an in and out is time consuming and counter productive. At least make it an option.

  • Fri, Nov 14 2014 10:10 AM In reply to

    • Mike Shaw
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    Re: Double matte problem

    Thanks again Luca - that rather takes some of the wind out of the MC sails (and sales, maybe!?). 

    Thanks too for the way to re-order stacked effects.  Dumping the effects into a bin and then restructuring the effect - I should have thought of that!  It is along the lines I use to save an 'adjusted' effect for use elsewhere - open the effects editor, and drag the effect icon to a bin, from where it can be used again.  It is a long and convoluted way of doing what - in most Windows programmes anyway - should be a simple 'copy and paste' exercise.  I can only say again - looks like Liquid was way ahead of its time and its demise was very premature!

    I'm just a hobby film maker, so don't really have other compositing software (well ... apart from a 'free' lite version of Hitfilm which, one day, I'll have a proper look at... first glance said - complicated!).  I'd have hoped that as the (claimed) 'world leading editing programme', MC could handle basic operations without a rigmarole.  I found similar problems trying to import graphic images without distorting them.  I was told that in MC, the logical and intuitive way is to use one of the 'Pan and Zoom' filters. Yes, that worked a treat. But ...  Intuitive?  Really? (What is 'Import>Graphic' for?).

    Thanks too to Mondo for the Avid FX suggestion  - I did try and got in a muddle with that - but that is due to my inexperience with the programme.  I will revisit it though, because the Blend-Warp filter wouldn't be needed - that probably being the filter that is causing the problem. 

    There are probably other ways of tackling it - using other filters - in MC. I shall explore further.   There is no doubt that MC is extremely powerful.  It's just a shame it can be so clunky at times in its methods.

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  • Fri, Nov 14 2014 2:46 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Double matte problem

    Mike,

    If you go over to my forum, you will find a reply to your question there and a link to my attempt at reproducing the effect you are looking for.  It took me about 10 minutes to do.

    http://forum.gaijin-eyes.com/forum2/

    Regards

    Douglas

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