Latest post Fri, Oct 17 2014 2:21 PM by Atomike. 12 replies.
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  • Wed, Oct 15 2014 5:00 PM

    • S.Clements
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    Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    Please make Media Composer's effects work properly and make it so that a user is not completely dependent upon BCC for real world survival.  I don't even know where to begin to tell you how fidley and inefficient most of the effects workflows are and how counter intuitive everything is and how there's a gotcha around every corner that requires going to to the forums to ask help for.  At least get up to the functionality level of FCP from 1999 - Please. 

    Avid Media Composer 8.3.1 Macbook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014) 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 16GB Ram Mac, OS 10.10.2 [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Oct 15 2014 9:20 PM In reply to

    Re: Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    S.Clements:
    how counter intuitive everything is
    Intuitive is different for everyone. For example before buying an NLE I tested and evaluated about 20 different NLE's  At around the same time another long time contributor here was working in the same town on Lightworks.  I spent an hour being run through their system and workflow. I went with Avid as it was more intuitive to me.  To this day I believe John (a higly skilled editor on numerous NLE's) still finds Lightworks more intuitive. 
    S.Clements:
    there's a gotcha around every corner that requires going to to the forums to ask help for.
    Really Many here have not needed to come to the forums to ask for effects help for years.
    S.Clements:
    At least get up to the functionality level of FCP from 1999
    Ha (IMO as an owner of it since version 1 ) in 1999 FCP was the worst NLE on the planet (It took several years of user feedback and pirating other NLE's concepts for it to become reasonably workable. I believe that even today it is still only intuitive to those who grew up with it.

    Every NLE requires a learning curve. Getting the best out of any NLE requires an openness to learn how their current NLE is designed to be driven effectively. Then the ability to modify and mold your workflows to suit every different NLE you use.

  • Wed, Oct 15 2014 11:00 PM In reply to

    • jwrl
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    Re: Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    AndrewAction:
    To this day I believe John (a higly skilled editor on numerous NLE's) still finds Lightworks more intuitive.
    Take it from me - he does!

    However, Andrew's last comment hides a really important factor, in my opinion.

    AndrewAction:
    Getting the best out of any NLE requires an openness to learn how their current NLE is designed to be driven effectively. Then the ability to modify and mold your workflows to suit every different NLE you use.
    I usually sum it up something along the lines of "This NLE is not the same as your last one.  When handled the way that it was designed to be used it's very fast and efficient.  But if you try to force it to be any other NLE you risk making it one of the slowest and most frustrating."

    Or words to that effect, anyway.  And I've used something like that paragraph to users here, to Lightworks users, to FCP users and to Premiere users.  Unfortunately editors nowadays have to have the flexibility to handle multiple NLEs across multiple platforms.  The days of the Moviola and splicing block are long gone.

    MC 7.0.4 - Asus P6T Deluxe V2 mobo - Intel i7 920 2.66GHz - Windows 7 Ult64 SP1 - nVidia Quadro FX 1800 - 16 Gbyte low latency DDR3 RAM - Internal 8 Tb... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Oct 16 2014 7:00 AM In reply to

    • S.Clements
    • Top 150 Contributor
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    Re: Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    I'm definitely not alone in this popular criticism and it's the reason even many Avid enthusiasts say "effects are not what Avid does" or others used to say "Avid's for offline, FCP is for online".  I agree Avid is a better cutter, but I would really like to feel that it matches other NLEs in the effects department.  One example of what I'm talking about is how opacity is buried in the foreground menu in 3D warp - that is what I mean by not intuitive.  Grading a keyed subject against greenscreen is incredibly fiddley with having to use the matte key effect.  Also, if you're used to accessing BCC plugins, you may forget how badly Avid deals with effects.

    Avid Media Composer 8.3.1 Macbook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014) 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 16GB Ram Mac, OS 10.10.2 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Oct 16 2014 7:09 AM In reply to

    Re: Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    The effects interface in MC is a disaster compared to how it's been implemented in any other NLE type program I've had the pleasure to sit in front of, including Avid's own DS.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Thu, Oct 16 2014 8:31 AM In reply to

    Re: Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    The effects inteface and the whole functionality is pretty much how it's been for many many years.

    In the light of current products that have the advantage of no back history it seems old and dated. But the flip side is editors who used Avid 10 yeras or more ago can still step in on a job today on Avid and understand the effects.

    Avid may well decide to throw out that legacy advantage and there will be far more folks posting here complaining of that you can be sure...

    And for me (having doen the 110 cours eand the rest) I don;t find it complex. It's a simple system and complexity is normally the result of me trying to get it to do more than it was designed for :-) But with that complexity I can get it to do just that.

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  • Thu, Oct 16 2014 8:47 AM In reply to

    Re: Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    S.Clements:
    I'm definitely not alone in this popular criticism
    Not suggesting you are alone or even that you are not completely right for you (and others.)

    S.Clements:
    opacity is buried in the foreground menu in 3D warp - that is what I mean by not intuitive
    In my opinion your "not intuitive" more accurately describes individuals instinctive expectation to find some function in a location they have consciously or subconsciously become familiar with in their career experiences. Thus not intuative is an opinion. Then as the old saying goes opinions are like ****** we all have them. Smile

  • Thu, Oct 16 2014 10:48 AM In reply to

    • S.Clements
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    Re: Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    The latest examples of the personal confusion caused by the effects workflow have been:

         Wanting to grade subject shot against greenscreen after pulling a key with spectramatte...  You can't simply just throw a color effect on the keyed layer, because that grades everything below.  The strange wokraround was to pull a key on one layer, duplicate the layer and put it in top - then remove the spectramatte from the bottom layer and put a color effect on it.  Then I had to nest the two clips and put the matte key effect over top.  Then, when I tried to grade the keyed footage in context, I tried to operate the color correction UI from outside the nest, but was told I had to step in in order to grade.  There was a workaround to grade outside, but it was tricky to figure out.  You couldn't simply expand the nest and select the layer to correct - the gotcha was that you had to expand the nest and select the layer on the outside timeline.  It was a very confusing workflow to figure out and required several questions in these forums.

       I have read about 10 books on Media composer, one that was all about professional effects.  Alll of that reading still has not prepared me for all the gotchas I come across.  It's difficult to learn when you're not surrounded by other Avid users and the effects system is not very intuitively designed.  Avid has the steepest learning curve of all the NLEs and the people who understand it intimately are the ones who've been using it from the begining and have grown up with all of its strangeness.

    Avid Media Composer 8.3.1 Macbook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014) 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 16GB Ram Mac, OS 10.10.2 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Oct 16 2014 2:11 PM In reply to

    Re: Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    Exactly! There is missing functionality in the Effects Editor. This really isn't about learning a new way but rather how to deal with missing features. And no matter how good you are with the workaround, having the feature in the first place would always be faster.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Thu, Oct 16 2014 6:04 PM In reply to

    Re: Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    My comfort with the way Media Composer works now is (obviously) a big part of how I get jobs, so I'm ok with the idea of making improvements to it as long as those improvements aren't made in a way that screws up any of the workflows I've developed over the last 17 years.

    Media Composer 2018.4 w/Symphony option, HP Envy 17t-j100 Quad Edition laptop, Windows 10 Pro, Intel Core i7 2.4GHz, 16 GB RAM, nVidia GeForce GT 740M [view my complete system specs]

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  • Thu, Oct 16 2014 6:34 PM In reply to

    • smrpix
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    Re: Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    Just thinking out loud. 

    If Avid were to update the way FX were handled it would have to be as much a PR effort as a technical one.  In order to accomodate millions of hours of legacy material it would probably require a big advance notice of the rollout, a lot of hand-holding by customer service, advice on preserving or updating legacy projects, and the availability of a "legacy" version for licensed users who needed to load up old projects.  (Probably tougher on the mac side with OS updates.)

    Not easy, but at some point that bullet may need to be bit.

     

  • Thu, Oct 16 2014 7:02 PM In reply to

    Re: Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    You can certainly improve effects in MC without breaking older projects. For example, I find it utterly frustrating that you can't disable an individual Avid effect applied to a segment. (BCC effects can be individually checked on or off.) Adding this functionality should not break legacy projects. There are many such gottchas in the Effect Editor that should have been fixed years ago.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Fri, Oct 17 2014 2:21 PM In reply to

    • Atomike
    • Top 150 Contributor
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    Re: Make effects workflows comprehensive intuitive and way less fidley, please ( & no 3rd party dependency)

    Pat Horridge:

    Avid may well decide to throw out that legacy advantage and there will be far more folks posting here complaining of that you can be sure...

    I don't think Avid needs to worry about upsetting long-time Avid editors by throwing out the current effects structure.  I've been editing on Avid since around 1998, and I would love if they threw out the entire current effects workflow. I think the long-time editors are the same people who use After Effects regularly, and have tried other NLE's - and have seen how amazingly backwards Media Composer is regarding effects work.  I loved Avid|DS, and Avid has all of that technology just sitting in a dumpster right now. Brilliant.

    The fact that a prosumer product like Sony Vegas has always had a superior effects workflow is something that really should have been addressed years ago - before adding things like the Smart Tool. 

    Media Composer 8.X (usually newest release), Avid matrix-recommended versions of both Nvidia driver and Quicktime, Matrox Mini MX02, Self-built machine... [view my complete system specs]

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