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  • Wed, Oct 22 2014 5:13 AM In reply to

    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    Mondo:
    Avid can now conveniently say "we are waiting for Sony to support it"
    True, But then Sony have an AMA plugin for the Xavc codec to support it and they label the format as professional. Sony also originally labelled the Xavc-s  codec as a consumer codec and deliberately stripped a reasonable variety of metadata from the files so they could get better write performance (to allow use of lower grade cards?)  So convenient or not I think in this case Avid could justifiably say "we are waiting for Sony to support it"

  • Wed, Oct 22 2014 1:54 PM In reply to

    • Pheral
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    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    Mondo:
    Avid is the NLE originator not Sony.

    But Sony is the originator of the codec.  I would much rather have Avid engineering concentrating on core workflows and not responding to every consumer codec that rolls into the market.

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  • Thu, Oct 23 2014 3:53 AM In reply to

    • Mondo
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    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    Pheral:

    Mondo:
    Avid is the NLE originator not Sony.

    But Sony is the originator of the codec.  I would much rather have Avid engineering concentrating on core workflows and not responding to every consumer codec that rolls into the market.

    It's not like there are thousands - even XAVCs is just an H264 variant. And Avid used to write the machine templates for hundreds of VTRs and that was considered part of the core workflow. Why not codecs as essentially they are the new VTRs? Avid designed the AMA interface - it's Avid's responsibility not Sony's to support it. My view -l Avid should have a way of accessing all codecs that the operating system can read.

    Avid is playing catch up and losing out badly to other NLE's. The 64bit revamp that promised so much has not been exploited - Avid can't even play back 4 streams of AVCHD in real time. Other NLE's can. Just saying...

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    John

    Can we go back to the way audio nodes used to be selected? Please? ie if you have audio nodes at the same time on selected tracks; then selecting 1 audio node selects them all at that time. Having to shift select nodes or add an in and out is time consuming and counter productive. At least make it an option.

  • Thu, Oct 23 2014 3:55 AM In reply to

    • Mondo
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    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    AndrewAction:
    Mondo:
    Avid can now conveniently say "we are waiting for Sony to support it"
    True, But then Sony have an AMA plugin for the Xavc codec to support it and they label the format as professional. Sony also originally labelled the Xavc-s  codec as a consumer codec and deliberately stripped a reasonable variety of metadata from the files so they could get better write performance (to allow use of lower grade cards?)  So convenient or not I think in this case Avid could justifiably say "we are waiting for Sony to support it"

     

    Please explain? Obviously you're privy to something I'm not..

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    John

    Can we go back to the way audio nodes used to be selected? Please? ie if you have audio nodes at the same time on selected tracks; then selecting 1 audio node selects them all at that time. Having to shift select nodes or add an in and out is time consuming and counter productive. At least make it an option.

  • Thu, Oct 23 2014 4:13 AM In reply to

    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    Here is the first about it I found just now. (It is one of several I have read over the last few months)

  • Thu, Oct 23 2014 6:05 AM In reply to

    • Mondo
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    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    That explains the difference between the various flavours, but NOT why stripping out the metadata makes an AMA plug in harder to write... or why it is necessarily Sony's problem and not Avid's?

    Bottom line - relying on camera manufacturer's to write plug ins for your application interface is a fundamentally flawed policy. This is my view and is obviously not shared by everyone around here - that's fine. I accept that. The trouble is when you leave editors hanging they'll look for a solution and often that solution will lie with another product. 

    Do it enough times and they won't bother coming back - they'll just use what works.

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    John

    Can we go back to the way audio nodes used to be selected? Please? ie if you have audio nodes at the same time on selected tracks; then selecting 1 audio node selects them all at that time. Having to shift select nodes or add an in and out is time consuming and counter productive. At least make it an option.

  • Thu, Oct 23 2014 5:26 PM In reply to

    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    Mondo:

    Bottom line - relying on camera manufacturer's to write plug ins for your application interface is a fundamentally flawed policy.

    5 years ago, Avid had to write native support for every codec on the market.  it took months and sometimes a full year to get these various codecs into Media Composer.  with the AMA archetecture, it allows for much faster access to these codecs - provided the codec manufacturer takes the time to write the plugin.

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  • Thu, Oct 23 2014 6:30 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    Spot on FunkyD.....

    and with the improvemsnt to AMA which have occured over time and will continue to occur - will allow for even easier and faster ways to bring codecs to market.

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  • Thu, Oct 23 2014 8:34 PM In reply to

    • blafarm
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    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    Marianna:

    XAVC-s is not supported by the current batch of Sony AMA plugins for a bunch of reasons of which I cant get into.  Dennis found that the MediaReactor plugin from Drastic Technologies ...  is capable of decoding XAVC-s material in Media Composer. 

    Thank you for that clarification, Marianna. 

    Clearly, no amount of user-discontent will change the fact that Sony is in the "driver's seat" on this.  I think it's entirely sensible that AMA plugins be authored by the manufacturer.  At the same time, this structure does occasionally put Media Composer users in a compromised position.

    For example, although XAVC-S is being marketed as a consumer codec, the extreme low-light sensitivity of the new Sony A7s camera is driving a surprising number of professional clients to use it for specialty purposes (like they did with GoPro), and as such, working in Media Composer includes some workflow speed bumps.  These speedbumps get somewhat bigger when entire projects are shot on these cameras -- or when clients arrive with footage that they know can be ingested by every other NLE.

    Anyway, the MediaReactor plugin at $495 is not an inexpensive solution to this problem -- but we are glad to be testing it to determine if it is appropriate for our application.

    Thanks for including the link.

    Edit:  Formatting Correction

  • Fri, Oct 24 2014 1:09 AM In reply to

    • TVJohn
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    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    I recall that HDV was regarded with distain as a lowly consumer format, yet the Canon XH series cameras found their way into many Indie filmakers hands.

    However one wishes to regard the value of AMA, allowing alternate solutions to provide a workaround for popular hot new hardware diminishes confidence.

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  • Fri, Oct 24 2014 4:30 AM In reply to

    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    TVJohn:
    allowing alternate solutions to provide a workaround for popular hot new hardware diminishes confidence.
    Here it only diminishes confidence in any hardware supplier who deliberately cripples their all new codec.

    In my books it is not the responsibility of any NLE (all costing at best half the cost of "the new" hardware) to reverse engineer a crippled codec.

    After nearly 40 years of buying video cameras I still believe the end user should rigorously research ALL aspects of any new "hottie" with an eye towards the way they need it and the media it produces to work for them. Historically the BS techno details provided in the promotional material has always been used to distract customers from becoming aware of any (known to the makers) missing functionality. For example a manufacturer prominently and proudly proclaiming  "Our our all new codec allows you to record 2 hours of stunning 4K on readily available, "affordable", cards" would make me closely scrutinise the camera and codecs technical spec sheets before letting the moths out of my wallet. Geeked

  • Fri, Oct 24 2014 10:38 AM In reply to

    • TVJohn
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    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    The real question is ~who is the 800lb gorilla in the room?Smile

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  • Fri, Oct 24 2014 10:13 PM In reply to

    • jwrl
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    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    Mondo:
    Bottom line - relying on camera manufacturer's to write plug ins for your application interface is a fundamentally flawed policy.
    FunkyDragon:
    the AMA archetecture ... allows for much faster access to these codecs - provided the codec manufacturer takes the time to write the plugin.
    TVJohn:
    The real question is ~who is the 800lb gorilla in the room?Smile

    Sony have their own NLE, which does support the format.  It begs the question, how much incentive does Sony have to write support software for competing products?

    I fully agree with Avid's approach to this problem, but there are inevitably going to be problems of this nature with such a support model.  I don't know what the real answer is, but reverse engineering codecs in such a fluid and dynamic market is definitely not it.

    In the best of all possible worlds, companies like Sony who can't or won't write the appropriate drivers would make SDKs available to software developers so they could write their own.  That would address the issue at the cost of additional development time, and with the risk of additional debugging cycles.  Not a good solution, but a solution, none the less.

    As it stands at the moment Sony are obviously reluctant to come to the party.

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  • Sun, Oct 26 2014 4:29 AM In reply to

    • TVJohn
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    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    I see even Pinnacle Studio now supports the format.

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  • Sun, Oct 26 2014 8:40 AM In reply to

    Re: Open letter to Avid (Xavc-s codec): can You ask to Sony ...

    More and more commercial aspects are affecting matters of compatibility and interoperability.  It's nothing new but when you come accross it it can be a frustrating experience. The question for Avid is if  the ability of the competition to support Xavc-s makes them loose customers and in the same way Sony will ask if not supporting Avid will make them loose sales to the competition.

    I can't judge what the answers are to these questions but I do sense that it would be unwise for Avid to think that it is not their problem if manufacturers like Sony do not support or give priority to the MC product line. If that also happens with Panasonic, Arri and RED then either a new market opens for companies like drastic technologies and hamburg pro or we see ourselves more isolated in our own Avid world (again) and, IMHO, the idea behind open I/O and 3rd party AMA plugins was to be more open and faster with compatibility.

    Seems to me this one of those cases for the ACA to arrange an ACA, Sony and Avid debate and to post the result to this thread so that at least everybody learns if and when an AMA plugin might be planned.

     

     

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