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  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 3:13 PM

    • bilbo
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    • berlin
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    Crying [:'(] The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    Ok dear people,

    this is an issue which occured together with the apparition of the for me absurd, useless, place consuming... smart toolSuper Angry

    In older time, I used to say: "the best point from avid against all the other edit software is the asymmetric trimming!", trimming different sides on different tracks.
    It was at the time where rollers used to be always pink and not smetimes pink or yellow. You could from track to track adjust the side which needed to be trimmed and especially for dialogs! a routine done 200 times per day.

    Sadly enough, this is not the case anymore and this cost me daily a lot of time and Angry...
    You have to click really many times to get what you want, get the most absurd settings and maybe at the end you have to go out of trim and again in, because it is so messy, you just lost your concept!

    ---> A case where the bad programming influence the quality of my work, and that is why this is for me my absolute top priority issue with Avid.

     

     

    The logic should be:

    You choose one-side trimming. When you then shift-click a roller, this one should go on the other side and just NOT give the option to become both-sided for that track, because it is ridiculous. It would spare one click per track!
    ---> If you want then to swicth back to both-side trimming, press the cycle trim or the center trim key (ü on a german KB)

    You choose both-sided trimming. In this case, shift-click a roller would change all rollers on that side. 

    For the playhead, the standard should be always the V position, because it is 90% where we need it to be, and if you want it on an audio track, then click the roller on the interesting audio track with no modifier (thanks Steve for that one) 

     

     

    I made some screen shots to make it clear, and will spread them in different posts, as I don't know how to post more than one pict in the same post.

    I KNOW IT IS POSSIBLE TO GET WHAT YOU NEED WITH ALL KIND OF TRICKS AND I KNOW THEM! BUT IT IS A SERIOUS WASTE OF TIME!!! The snapshots are to make clear how absurd it can be. Of course, I overdid it there! 

     

    1.The start situation in trim. I want to keep the handle of sound on track 3 and 4 so I need to change the rollers direction there.


    Teaching: MC Apple or windows, Liquid (until 2 years ago), Premiere, FCP... Also Flash, Director, AE. Using: MC, FCP 7 & X At Home: MC 7.04 interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    I love words, even if they make me crazy and are responsible for most of the fights and wars. I don't like these last two. 

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 3:20 PM In reply to

    • bilbo
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    • berlin
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    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    2.I click in the track 3 & 4 to change the direction.
    --->If I click on the roller it disappear and I have to click a SECOND time
    --->If I click outside the clip, both side will be selected and I have to click a SECOND time.

    Note that the situation with both sides selected on audio, when only one side in another track (here V) is absurd and totally IMPOSSIBLE!

    In older time the roller would change left or right because V is selected on one side. Totally logic, simple, no stress. 


    Teaching: MC Apple or windows, Liquid (until 2 years ago), Premiere, FCP... Also Flash, Director, AE. Using: MC, FCP 7 & X At Home: MC 7.04 interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    I love words, even if they make me crazy and are responsible for most of the fights and wars. I don't like these last two. 

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 3:21 PM In reply to

    • bilbo
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    • berlin
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    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    3. You can also get this kind of absurdity.


    Teaching: MC Apple or windows, Liquid (until 2 years ago), Premiere, FCP... Also Flash, Director, AE. Using: MC, FCP 7 & X At Home: MC 7.04 interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    I love words, even if they make me crazy and are responsible for most of the fights and wars. I don't like these last two. 

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 3:22 PM In reply to

    • bilbo
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    • Joined on Sun, May 26 2013
    • berlin
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    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    4. Or this kind:


    Teaching: MC Apple or windows, Liquid (until 2 years ago), Premiere, FCP... Also Flash, Director, AE. Using: MC, FCP 7 & X At Home: MC 7.04 interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    I love words, even if they make me crazy and are responsible for most of the fights and wars. I don't like these last two. 

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 3:23 PM In reply to

    • bilbo
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    • Joined on Sun, May 26 2013
    • berlin
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    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    5.If you are patient, you will slowly get what you need:Cool


    Teaching: MC Apple or windows, Liquid (until 2 years ago), Premiere, FCP... Also Flash, Director, AE. Using: MC, FCP 7 & X At Home: MC 7.04 interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    I love words, even if they make me crazy and are responsible for most of the fights and wars. I don't like these last two. 

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 3:24 PM In reply to

    • bilbo
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    • Joined on Sun, May 26 2013
    • berlin
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    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    6.

    Another absurdities you will discover when pressing the adjustment trim keys (on German KB: m,.-) 

    ---> The preview is now located according to the last audio tracks you touched. It it is a long off sentence in a dialog or music(!) you're f***. Then, the trick is to deselect the V roller and reselect it again. Might work with a few cliks, if you are lucky. 

    ---> The direction of the sliding follow the audio track! SO you want to trimleft and you trim right. Angry So again you will have to deselect the V-roller and reselect it again, which is easier said than done.

    At the end of the day, you might look at this rather impossible set up!  


    Teaching: MC Apple or windows, Liquid (until 2 years ago), Premiere, FCP... Also Flash, Director, AE. Using: MC, FCP 7 & X At Home: MC 7.04 interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    I love words, even if they make me crazy and are responsible for most of the fights and wars. I don't like these last two. 

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 3:24 PM In reply to

    • bilbo
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    • Joined on Sun, May 26 2013
    • berlin
    • Posts 125
    • Points 1,460

    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    People, 

    this situation is INSANE!

    Trimming is a vital fonction!!!
    (especially for fiction editors)  

    I end up sometimes correcting my edits with segment mode + a lot of dragging, which means for me a real downgrade to FCP!

     

    PLEASE TAKE THIS ISSUE SERIOUSLY!!!
    THANKS,

    Bilbo 

    Teaching: MC Apple or windows, Liquid (until 2 years ago), Premiere, FCP... Also Flash, Director, AE. Using: MC, FCP 7 & X At Home: MC 7.04 interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    I love words, even if they make me crazy and are responsible for most of the fights and wars. I don't like these last two. 

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 4:08 PM In reply to

    • bilbo
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    • Joined on Sun, May 26 2013
    • berlin
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    • Points 1,460

    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    Btw, I think that this mess started when 2 kinds of trimming have been declared: red and yellow.

    This doesn't make ANY sense to me, and messed up a lot in the trimming process.

    In older time: we had both side trim and on-side trim. Did you missed anything???

    Now we have one side red or one side yellow or both sides red or yellow! Confused Highly confusing and surely the reason why asymmetric trimming doesn't work smoothly any more. 

    Why change a great fonctionality and turn it in such a mess? 
    I really don't know.

    Greets, Bilbo 

    Teaching: MC Apple or windows, Liquid (until 2 years ago), Premiere, FCP... Also Flash, Director, AE. Using: MC, FCP 7 & X At Home: MC 7.04 interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    I love words, even if they make me crazy and are responsible for most of the fights and wars. I don't like these last two. 

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 4:22 PM In reply to

    • stevecohen
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    • Venice, California
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    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    Bilbo,

    Some suggestions:

    1. Lasso a transition or transitions to select them for trimming and to enter Trim Mode. This allows you to select multiple transitions in one move and is much more precise than using either the trim mode button or the smart tool. (Just click in the timeline to exit trim mode.)

    2. Once you're in trim mode, shift-click additional transitions to add rollers to them. Shift-click existing rollers to remove them.

    3. The quickest way to switch some of your rollers from one side to another: shift-lasso them.

    4. Click an existing roller (without modifier keys) to move the playhead to that part of the trim (without affecting rollers) and observe the effect of the trim from that position.

    5. Having a different number of rollers on each track is basically meaningless, as you point out. But that's always been true.

    6. In general, you may find roller placement a lot more controllable if you turn off the trim smart tools. With the smart tools off, and you hover over a transition in trim mode, you see only two choices, left or right, rather than three, left-center-right. That makes it a lot easier to control roller placement, and avoid meaningless combinations.

    7. Also, try using the Cycle Trim Sides button (in the Trim tab of the Command Palette). This moves the rollers like this: left-center-right-center-left-center-etc. It also has a hidden feature -- when you're not in Trim Mode, it does the same thing as the Toggle Source Record button (the Escape key) -- so it can replace that button on your keyboard with no loss in function.

    (Shameless plug -- all this and a lot more is explained in my book Avid Agility.)

    Steve

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 10:40 PM In reply to

    • bilbo
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    • Joined on Sun, May 26 2013
    • berlin
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    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    Hi dear Steve,

    thanks for point 4. (playhead position) which I didn't know.

    I think, you didn't get my point. Of course, it is possible to get what you want! I did present extreme combinations to show the absurdity of the programming of the trim tool. If the programming would skip the impossible combinations, we could reduce the amount of clicks and that is what I want to point out!

    The logic should be:

    - You choose one-side trimming. When you then shift-click a roller, this one should go on the other side and just NOT give the option to become both-sided for that track, because it is ridiculous. It would spare one click per track!
    ---> If you want then to swicth back to both-side trimming, press the cycle trim or the center trim key (ü on a german KB)

    - You choose both-sided trimming. In this case, shift-click a roller would change all rollers on that side. 

    - For the playhead, the standard should be always the V position, because it is 90% where we need it to be, and if you want it on an audio track, then trick 4 Wink

     

    Greets, Bilbo

    PS: using professionaly MC since 1997. Editor since 1985 (started with Moviola and later Steenbeck). 

    Teaching: MC Apple or windows, Liquid (until 2 years ago), Premiere, FCP... Also Flash, Director, AE. Using: MC, FCP 7 & X At Home: MC 7.04 interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    I love words, even if they make me crazy and are responsible for most of the fights and wars. I don't like these last two. 

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 11:11 PM In reply to

    • bilbo
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    • Joined on Sun, May 26 2013
    • berlin
    • Posts 125
    • Points 1,460

    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

     

    Hi dear Steve,

    I've been looking your advice a bit more carefully...

     

    stevecohen:

    Lasso a transition or transitions to select them for trimming and to enter Trim Mode. This allows you to select multiple transitions in one move and is much more precise than using either the trim mode button or the smart tool. 

    I never use the smart tool.

    I don't see why lassso should be more precise than the U button. 

     

     

    stevecohen:

    (Just click in the timeline to exit trim mode.)

    That doesn't work. I use Z.

     

     

    stevecohen:

    3. The quickest way to switch some of your rollers from one side to another: shift-lasso them.

    That doesn't work. If you shift lasso a trim left (or right), it becomes a trim centered. If you lasso it again, nothing happens.

     

     

    stevecohen:

    5. Having a different number of rollers on each track is basically meaningless, as you point out. But that's always been true.

    No, it was not like this before the first MC version using Smart Tool and red/yellow trim rollers (Not all pink)

     

     

     

    stevecohen:
    6. In general, you may find roller placement a lot more controllable if you turn off the trim smart tools. With the smart tools off, and you hover over a transition in trim mode, you see only two choices, left or right, rather than three, left-center-right. That makes it a lot easier to control roller placement, and avoid meaningless combinations.

    This is not true. Only the first click will offer you only left or only right.

    Anyway it needs 2 clicks to change a roller side for one track which is one too much--> my point here.

     

     

     

    stevecohen:

    7. Also, try using the Cycle Trim Sides button (in the Trim tab of the Command Palette). This moves the rollers like this: left-center-right-center-left-center-etc.

    That helps nothing, as it change all tracks roller sides.

     

     

    The trick 4 is still cool Smile Even if I do believe that the priotity for the playhead should be the V track and this trick should only be necessary when you need the playhead on another track than V1.

     

     

    Greetings, Bilbo

    Teaching: MC Apple or windows, Liquid (until 2 years ago), Premiere, FCP... Also Flash, Director, AE. Using: MC, FCP 7 & X At Home: MC 7.04 interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    I love words, even if they make me crazy and are responsible for most of the fights and wars. I don't like these last two. 

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 11:11 PM In reply to

    • bilbo
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Sun, May 26 2013
    • berlin
    • Posts 125
    • Points 1,460

    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    mistake: double posting and I have no idea how to delete it, sorry.

    Teaching: MC Apple or windows, Liquid (until 2 years ago), Premiere, FCP... Also Flash, Director, AE. Using: MC, FCP 7 & X At Home: MC 7.04 interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    I love words, even if they make me crazy and are responsible for most of the fights and wars. I don't like these last two. 

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 11:24 PM In reply to

    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    bilbo:

    (Just click in the timeline to exit trim mode.)

    That doesn't work. I use Z.

    Click on the timecode track works (if enabled in settings) as does the newer timeline track at the top of the timeline window.

     

  • Thu, Aug 8 2013 11:46 PM In reply to

    • stevecohen
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    • Joined on Mon, Jul 3 2006
    • Venice, California
    • Posts 499
    • Points 5,520

    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    I don't see why lassso should be more precise than the U button.

    Because you can select multiple transitions that aren't aligned in time in a single step.

    Just click in the timeline to exit trim mode.

    That doesn't work. I use Z.

    Click on the ruler above your tracks or on a timecode track.

    If you shift lasso a trim left (or right), it becomes a trim centered. If you lasso it again, nothing happens.

    I meant, once you are in trim mode and a single roller is already present on a transition. For example, if your roller is on the right side and you shift-lasso that transition, it will move to the left.

    Having a different number of rollers on each track is basically meaningless, as you point out. But that's always been true.

    No, it was not like this before the first MC version using Smart Tool and red/yellow trim rollers.

    I helped design asymmetrical trimming and it's always been possible to create a different number of rollers in each track and it's never been meaningful. I think your point is a good one, that it should be harder to do this, but if it isn't implemented correctly, it will make it a lot harder to manipulate asymmetrical trims. You have the freedom to create any roller combo you want and the responsibility to create meaningful combinations.

    It needs 2 clicks to change a roller side for one track which is one too much--> my point here.

    See above about shift-lasso of existing single rollers.

    the priotity for the playhead should be the V track and this trick should only be necessary when you need the playhead on another track than V1.

    I cut for sound as much as I cut for picture. So, for me, the priority needs to be very flexible.

    Steve

     

  • Fri, Aug 9 2013 1:09 AM In reply to

    • bilbo
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    • berlin
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    Re: The MESS with asymmetric trimming! <-- For me a real TOP PRIORITY ISSUE

    HI dear Steve,

    thanks for your reply.

     

    quote:

    I don't see why lassso should be more precise than the U button.

    Because you can select multiple transitions that aren't aligned in time in a single step.

    I don't get your point.
    When seleting a track, the edit on this track is selected (or de-selected) and it does not matter if aligned or far. Normally I do this in the track selector, often with shift click and slide on the tracks, but right now it is BUGGY!

    http://community.avid.com/forums/t/121577.aspx

     

    quote:

    If you shift lasso a trim left (or right), it becomes a trim centered. If you lasso it again, nothing happens.

    I meant, once you are in trim mode and a single roller is already present on a transition. For example, if your roller is on the right side and you shift-lasso that transition, it will move to the left.

    Sorry, it doesn't !!!
    Maybe it did that in an earlier version.

     

    stevecohen:

    I helped design asymmetrical trimming and it's always been possible to create a different number of rollers in each track and it's never been meaningful. I think your point is a good one, that it should be harder to do this, but if it isn't implemented correctly, it will make it a lot harder to manipulate asymmetrical trims. You have the freedom to create any roller combo you want and the responsibility to create meaningful combinations.

    I still think it is very possible and of course has to be implemented correctly. Nobody will miss creating absurd constellations and everybody will be happy to click less!
    AND: it was not like this when the rollers were only pink (also before the trim red/yellow nonsense was born). The asymmetrical were much more fluid, I don't remember exactly the diffence click by click but I was using it 10 hours per day (dialog editing) and never had any feeling of unlogical behavior, which I definively have now.

     

    quote:

    It needs 2 clicks to change a roller side for one track which is one too much--> my point here.

    See above about shift-lasso of existing single rollers.


    As I said before it is NOT working. Maybe it did on version 6? 

     

    quote:

    the priotity for the playhead should be the V track and this trick should only be necessary when you need the playhead on another track than V1.

    I cut for sound as much as I cut for picture. So, for me, the priority needs to be very flexible.

    I'm also editing 50% sound and 50% picture, hum actually more sound (please, I'm also an older editor!) but look. When you trim sound, you are mostly trimming in Audio track so the video track are usually not activated. When starting a trim with V activated it is mostly an edit were the playhead should be centered on the picture.
    Ok, you might work different but maybe you should observe your workflow in trim from this perspective. 

     

    Greetings, Bilbo

    Teaching: MC Apple or windows, Liquid (until 2 years ago), Premiere, FCP... Also Flash, Director, AE. Using: MC, FCP 7 & X At Home: MC 7.04 interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    I love words, even if they make me crazy and are responsible for most of the fights and wars. I don't like these last two. 

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