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  • Fri, Jun 7 2013 5:54 AM

    • Razultull
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    Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    Hi everyone, i'm new here and new to the new Media Composer software. I own a production house in India and i've found myself in something of a dilemma, so i decided to pose the problem to you guys directly.

    Our production house deals with a fairly large number of commercials a month and soon the workstation we are trying to put together will be dealing with feature films(2k).

    Basically, there is a company here called Real Image that offers a complete editing suite, the cost of which is $20,000.

    Among a list of things they offer are a Nitris DX Component, a Workstation, a RAID tower and some wires and other necessaries. My question pertains to the HP z820 workstation they have costed for. 

    Over here the cost of that workstation is rouhgly 7k USD, a price tag that i am sure is far too high but unfortunately that's what they charge. 

    HPz820: 

    2 x Xeon e5 2640 6 cores

    16gb DDR3 1600 RAM

    Quadro 4000

    1 TB 7200 rpm drive.

     

    Those are the main components of that computer, which i don't think is anywhere close to worth that much. 

    However, my other studio has just bought 2 high end systems that they use for 3d modelling but i'm unsure how it will perform with media composer. It costed roughly 5k USD to build and is newer in it's components.

    I have the choice of using one of those computers for my rendering work here but i wanted to ask you guys if it would be the same if not more powerful than the HP z820. And whether i would face any issues when editing any features we come across.

     

    Specs of the alternate computer:

    i7 -3770k

    32 GB 1600 Mhz RAM

    Nvidia GTX TITAN

    250 GB SSD and a 2 x 1 TB RAID set up for temporary high-speed storage.

     

    I know that Media Composer uses Cuda Cores and the TITAN absolutely demolishes the Quadro 4000 when it comes to sheer computing power, but i wanted to ask here if any of you thought this second system was up to the task or whether it needed a tweak or whether i should just go for the HP z820.

     

    Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

     

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  • Fri, Jun 7 2013 4:28 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    Hello there

    Here is the comparison between the two systems:

    Processor –

    i7-3770k – 3.5 Ghz 8 core 8M cache - consumer grade

    E5-2640 – 2.5 Ghz 24 core 15M cache - high end professional grade (hands down winner here)

    Memory – same speed - The Media Composer application is designed to use up to 16 GB (32GB does not help)

    Graphics – Avid Media Composer is designed to use Nvidia Quadro series (professional series that ships with workstations) for graphics acceleration.  No other cards are qualified to use the GPU.  Z820 can use the K4000 which is the Kepler series (same as GTX titan). I am not sure which card is equivalent to GTX tital (K2000/K4000/K5000).  However, Media Composer will not use GTX titan for GPU acceleration.

    Drives – Obviously, the SSD drive is faster.  However, the system drive does not effect performance for video editing. The media drives are the main concern with editing. Dual 1TB raid will only run about 200MB/sec for seq reads.  A raid tower with 5 drives runs the sequential test about 500 MB/sec.  Not sure if you need that much media bandwidth but this also effects render, transcode, mixdown, etc.

    Will the i7 system work.

    Sure, it meets the min specs for running MC. 

    Will it be faster than the Z820 with raid tower – NO.

    marianna  

    Director of Online Communities and Forums/Customer Advocate [view my complete system specs]

    marianna.montague@avid.com

    mobile 813-493-6800

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  • Fri, Jun 7 2013 4:40 PM In reply to

    • Ben Wilson
    • Top 500 Contributor
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    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    In my experience here in the States, $7k is not an unrealistic price for the z820 in that configuration.  I believe the z800 I bought with my last upgrade was around $8k.  I have gone to HP's website to custom configure a system before and did about the same for money.

    Several. 1x MC7.0.4 HP z800 dual XEON x5650-2.66GHz 12MB Ram Quadro FX3800 NitrisDX. 4 TB GSPEEDes storage. 2x MC 7.0.4 HP z420 MatroxLE. GSpeedQ 8TB... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Jun 7 2013 5:38 PM In reply to

    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    it all comes down to where do you want to pay for it?  Up front in $ for a tested, qualified, proven and supported set-up?  or in blood, sweat, tears, and TIME fiddling around trying to figure out why critical function X just isn't working "as advertized"

    I always pay for it up front, because that's generally a fixed amount. 

    Media Composer 8.2 Dongle+Symphony Option Win7x64 Pro HP zBook 15" Laptop - 16GB RAM (2nd System) Media Composer 8.2 Dongle+Symphony Option - HP z420... [view my complete system specs]

     The FunkyDragon 

    Happy Editing!

  • Fri, Jun 7 2013 5:46 PM In reply to

    • Pheral
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    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    Ben Wilson:
    In my experience here in the States, $7k is not an unrealistic price for the z820 in that configuration. 

    I'm going to echo Ben here.  That is not an unreasonable price for that workstation, and what you typically get for that money is a rock-solid, Avid-approved machine.  If I'm working for paying clients and need that level of relizbility, it's worth every penny.

    Media Composer v8.9.2 | Windows 10 Professional 64-Bit | Supermicro X10DAi | Intel Xeon E5-2620 v4 Broadwell (x2) | Noctua NH-D9DX i4 (x2) | PNY GeForce... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Jun 7 2013 5:55 PM In reply to

    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    In the US at least, it also includes 3-year onsite warranty.  For a nominal amount that can be upgraded to A 4-hour response time as well.  Time is money ...

    Symphony 8.8.x w/Avid Nitris DX, HP z420, Windows 10, QT v7.7.x, Hexa Core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, nVidia Quadro Series 2000 w/353.82. 2TB Boot, 2 x 3TB internal... [view my complete system specs]

    "There are few technological barriers.  You can fix almost anything if you throw enough money at it."
    *******************************
    Randall L. Rike, ACI, ACSR Mac*Win*Unity*ISIS*DS
    Systems Engineer @ BET Networks [a Viacom company]
    (wwld)

  • Fri, Jun 7 2013 5:57 PM In reply to

    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    Razultull:
    Our production house deals with a fairly large number of commercials a month and soon the workstation we are trying to put together will be dealing with feature films(2k).

    Razultull:
    the TITAN absolutely demolishes the Quadro 4000 when it comes to sheer computing power

    One thing I think you have to keep in mind is that Media Compser does not do 2K. So If you need to do 2K finishing on the computer as well, then you should also be specing for whatever program(s) you will be doing 2K with.

    Also, depending on your workflow, do you need Nitris DX? If you do, then you have to add the cost of that to the cheaper system.

    Hope that helps a little bit.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Fri, Jun 7 2013 8:54 PM In reply to

    • Razultull
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    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    Marianna:

    Hello there

     

    Here is the comparison between the two systems:

    Processor –

    i7-3770k – 3.5 Ghz 8 core 8M cache - consumer grade

    E5-2640 – 2.5 Ghz 24 core 15M cache - high end professional grade (hands down winner here)

    Memory – same speed - The Media Composer application is designed to use up to 16 GB (32GB does not help)

    Graphics – Avid Media Composer is designed to use Nvidia Quadro series (professional series that ships with workstations) for graphics acceleration.  No other cards are qualified to use the GPU.  Z820 can use the K4000 which is the Kepler series (same as GTX titan). I am not sure which card is equivalent to GTX tital (K2000/K4000/K5000).  However, Media Composer will not use GTX titan for GPU acceleration.

    Drives – Obviously, the SSD drive is faster.  However, the system drive does not effect performance for video editing. The media drives are the main concern with editing. Dual 1TB raid will only run about 200MB/sec for seq reads.  A raid tower with 5 drives runs the sequential test about 500 MB/sec.  Not sure if you need that much media bandwidth but this also effects render, transcode, mixdown, etc.

    Will the i7 system work.

    Sure, it meets the min specs for running MC. 

    Will it be faster than the Z820 with raid tower – NO.

    marianna  

     

    So if we were to replace the titan with a high end Quadro card, you're saying that it will then kick in? Why would Media Composer not use the Titan? That seems like some unneccesary segregation don't you?

  • Fri, Jun 7 2013 8:58 PM In reply to

    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    Avid exploits the implementation of OGL in the Quadro series.  Apparently, that same expolit is not availabkle in other nVidia models.

    Symphony 8.8.x w/Avid Nitris DX, HP z420, Windows 10, QT v7.7.x, Hexa Core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, nVidia Quadro Series 2000 w/353.82. 2TB Boot, 2 x 3TB internal... [view my complete system specs]

    "There are few technological barriers.  You can fix almost anything if you throw enough money at it."
    *******************************
    Randall L. Rike, ACI, ACSR Mac*Win*Unity*ISIS*DS
    Systems Engineer @ BET Networks [a Viacom company]
    (wwld)

  • Sat, Jun 8 2013 5:04 AM In reply to

    • Razultull
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    • Joined on Fri, Jun 7 2013
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    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    Marianna thanks for your detailed reply, do you think if I switched in the Titan with a K5000 and then halved my RAM, the system would be good?

  • Sat, Jun 8 2013 10:30 AM In reply to

    • Rinze Schuurman
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    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    Randall L Rike:

    Avid exploits the implementation of OGL in the Quadro series.  Apparently, that same expolit is not availabkle in other nVidia models.

    Hi Randall

    I looked it up on the nvidia site, and since august 2012 nvidia made open gl available to all cards with fermi or kepler cores, also the GeForce cards (400 series and up). How this impacts Avid performance I don't know, but I very much like to know if the distinction Avid makes between the Quadro family and the Geforce series is based on the need of a quaddro driver to accellerate or making sure certain combinations of hardware work instead of testing all of them. In other words, if I buy a 4000$ Quaddro will it outperform a 1000$ Geforce Titan which on paper is twice as fast.

    4 avid systems on x58 and x79 platforms with 18 TB internal mediadrive in raid 5 each and 300 GB ssd OS drive, Nvidia GTX 580 to Nvidia GTX Titan video... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Sat, Jun 8 2013 12:57 PM In reply to

    • Razultull
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    • Joined on Fri, Jun 7 2013
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    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    Hi Randall

    I looked it up on the nvidia site, and since august 2012 nvidia made open gl available to all cards with fermi or kepler cores, also the GeForce cards (400 series and up). How this impacts Avid performance I don't know, but I very much like to know if the distinction Avid makes between the Quadro family and the Geforce series is based on the need of a quaddro driver to accellerate or making sure certain combinations of hardware work instead of testing all of them. In other words, if I buy a 4000$ Quaddro will it outperform a 1000$ Geforce Titan which on paper is twice as fast.

     

    That's a very good question Rinze, it's something i have been grappling with for a while. The document attached here, outlines the technical differences between the two, which seem to boil down to a basic difference in reliability. 

     

    An interesting thread is here too: 

    http://forums.adobe.com/message/4106131

     

     

    I think this is basically just unknowing customers being bullied into buying far more expensive cards for no reason. The pipelines seem to differ ever so slightly, as a Computer Scientist, this really is upsetting.

  • Sat, Jun 8 2013 1:45 PM In reply to

    • TVJohn
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    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    The Quadro only recommendation based on card tech is somewhat dated, as previously only high end workstation cards offered OpenGL. It has not been noticed that any CUDA based instructions are leveraged currently.

    Avid includes a "lookup list" within MC that checks the list vs the installed card. That list is used to turn on automatic GPU render or not. With GPU render off certain realtime OpenGL elements will not display realtime. Console commands can be used to force on GPU leave automatic, or force off if needed for diagnostic needs.

    Avid has qualified a couple of Intel i7 onboard video chips as approved graphics engines, so the idea that only OpenGL can be rendered within a Quadro card is set aside.

    In my experience, for similiar CPU architecture higher clock speeds yield improved results than more than 4 cores. Often the applications do not proportion tasks appropriately to leverage more than 4 cores. That process is then taken up by the OS which is not as efficient.

    There are situations out in the world when technicial expertice is very high, and available money to buy prebuilt is limited, that would certainly influence decisions.

    Now, here is where everything changes. 

    Odds are the production environment you describe will probably involve shared storage, hardware I/O, and likely one or two applications running concurrently with Avid. PCI bandwidth, preferred slots for I/O cards all factor into a stable system. Avid takes a limited number of systems, creates a typical production situation, tests, and insures that operation, stability, and performance meets the user's needs.

    Its not just about raw hardware performance numbers, its getting the job done.

    Dell Display U2713HM(2560x1440), AMD FX8350 8core, AMD 990FX mobo, 32gig-DDR3-1600, Quadro K620/GTX260/core 216, Audigy2zs, 1TB SSD system drive, 2TB SATA... [view my complete system specs]

    Using MC 8.4. Avid FX6.4, Vegas Pro 15/ DVD Architect 6pro, DVDit6.4proHD, CCE Basic, TmpGe Express4, TmpGe Authoring Works 4, DVDLab-Studio. Sony EX-1R, Canon XH-A1, GL2, GL1, Canon EOS 60D

  • Sat, Jun 8 2013 3:51 PM In reply to

    • Typhon2007
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    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    I would advice the HP z420 6core.

    I is a powerfull workstation. Stronger that an home made i7 computer. Very stable.

    For half the prize of the z820.

    Best value for money.

    15x z420 - MC 8.7.2 - ISIS 5500 3x64TB - Interplay 3.5 - ProTools 12.6 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Jun 8 2013 6:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Alternate Computer from the HP z820

    Typhon2007:

    I would advice the HP z420 6core.

    I is a powerfull workstation. Stronger that an home made i7 computer. Very stable.

    For half the prize of the z820.

    Best value for money.

    Seconded.

    Media Composer 8.2 Dongle+Symphony Option Win7x64 Pro HP zBook 15" Laptop - 16GB RAM (2nd System) Media Composer 8.2 Dongle+Symphony Option - HP z420... [view my complete system specs]

     The FunkyDragon 

    Happy Editing!

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