Latest post Thu, Mar 9 2006 8:33 PM by switthaus. 73 replies.
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  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 2:02 PM

    • cope
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    No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    Hi all,
    I've been noticing over the last couple of months that every job I see that involves editing wants an FCP editor. I know the arguments over FCP vs Avid have been going on in technical terms but out there in the market place FCP seems to be the NLE of choice. Even the good old BBC have bought a whole load of FCP systems. I love avid, don't get me wrong, but trying to find editing work thats not high-end broadcast stuff is difficult, at least here in the UK.
    It seems to me that Avid have really lost out in the lower end of the price range, I'm sure that MC's and Symphonys will never really be challenged  (just yet) but at entry level it seems that FCP is dominating.
    Anyone have any comments?, this isn't about which NLE is better, just about which one seems to be dominating the market and its effect on getting work as an Avid editor.
    Cheers
    Ian
    (off to amazon to buy a how to use FCP book)
    DUAL 3.2G XEON GIGABYTE GA-91TDW M/B WIN XP PRO SP2 NVIDIA FX1300 PCI GRAPHICS (84.26) 2G RAM 80G IDE BOOT 2X 250 G SATA MEDIA DRIVES (INT) 1X250G... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 2:37 PM In reply to

    • drsunshine
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    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    You're right that in the UK, at least, FCP is growing in the industry - though i'm sure the BBC's move to FCP early had more to do with native HDV ability at that time and £££ than anything else - BBC post seems to be a mess to me. And anyway, you don't know what will occur in the future once all those G5s start looking dated!!
    I'm pretty used to FCP and Premiere Pro but dont see either removing Avid. IMHO you should know Avid, and if you do you can adopt another NLE witout too much heartache - stepping the other way can be harder.

    N.B Have a look for 'Total Training DVDs' for FCP - its not treachery, its survival!!

    MC Adrenaline (Dnxcel inc.) v2.7 HP XW 8400 Dual 2.66Ghz/3Gb RAM Nvidia FX 1500 [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 4:10 PM In reply to

    • powerfreak
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    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    I've been seeing the same trend here in NY as well. I don't really do too much freelance work, so it hasn't really affected me, but almost every job posting I see requires FCP experience.
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  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 4:58 PM In reply to

    • cope
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    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    Hi
    The pig of it is I'm on a PC so trial versions of FCP are a no go so I have to find someone kind enough to let me play with one if I want to get my head around it,  feeling confident to try and get work with it is another matter.
    Found a good looking book though.... Final Cut Pro for Avid Editors: A Guide for Editors Making the Switch  by Diana Weynand ....will probably give it a try and then look for some where to try the program out.
    Technology eh!
    Cheers
    Ian

    DUAL 3.2G XEON GIGABYTE GA-91TDW M/B WIN XP PRO SP2 NVIDIA FX1300 PCI GRAPHICS (84.26) 2G RAM 80G IDE BOOT 2X 250 G SATA MEDIA DRIVES (INT) 1X250G... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 5:19 PM In reply to

    • xyedit
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    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    Personally, I think the influx of FCP editors sought is due to a couple of factors.

    1. Avid editors are traditionally thought of as more experienced, therefore more expensive.  An FCP editor is more likely to be someone straight out of school, in other words... a cheaper day rate.
    2. Many people love Macs and feel that you can't do creative type work unless you have one, FCP is a "one stop shop" and only runs on Mac.  Avid, as we all know has had some "issues" on Mac recently.  (I'm not saying it's Avid or Apple's fault, just stating a fact)
    3. There is a big misconception (among those that don't know) that Avid is terribly expensive to own and operate.  I recently took a freelance job and when the guy found out I had an Avid system at home, he freaked and wondered how I could afford such a thing.  He had no idea there was a "low-end" solution.
    4. Apple has incredible marketing.

    There are probably more, but I'm sure someone else will come up with them.

    I'd like to say though that one thing that these FCP job offers fail to see about the beauty of Avid is the ability to share projects and media and work on a project globally.  So, if I were looking to contract freelance editors, I'd look for Avid editors because I know I can FedEX an external hard drive with media to them and then they can email their bins/projects.  You can't do that with FCP. 

    A friend of mine here in Boston does lots of work for a place in NYC, if it weren't for him using Avid he would have to be on-site in NY for the length of the project.  Which would ultimately cost more to the producer (food, temp housing, etc), but he stays here and sends his stuff via FTP. 

    IMHO those FCP job offers are from ill-informed people.











    Dell PWS360 P4 2.4GHz 1.5GB RAM 80GB system drive 500GB internal SATA2 media drive >1TB... [view my complete system specs]
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  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 6:40 PM In reply to

    • camoscato
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    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    Hi,

    I don't think you can judge the number of Avid jobs vs. FCP jobs based on online job postings, because in my experience, the vast majority of jobs - good, high-paying broadcast and corporate jobs - aren't posted on websites to begin with.

    Just taking a quick look on www.mandy.com and craigslist's film/tv/radio and crew jobs listed in New York City, there seem to be a lot more FCP jobs than Avid jobs, but if you look at the posts, there are a lot of FCP jobs that say something like "pay will be a percentage of the profit" or "no pay for this job, but could lead to paying jobs in the future" and that kind of crap.

    In my experience, high end broadcast and corporate shops use Avid because 1) they know it works, and 2) the pool of experienced, talented freelance and staff people is larger with Avid than with FCP.

    good luck,
    Carl

    MC 5.0.3, HP dv9605ea, Vista Home Premium, AMD Athlon 1.8 GHz, 4 GB RAM, nVidia GeForce 7150M, Conexant HD Audio, G-tech 500GB G-drive [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 7:01 PM In reply to

    • Adman
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    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    I've been discussing the same issue with a freelance editor and animator. He has exclusively used Avid and Maya in high end environments, but recently was told by "The Weather Channel" that they are only considering FCP editors (in spite of the fact that he has extensive experience at Crawford Post, CNN and other top end facilities). He is convinced that the job market has changed and the FCP editors are in the greatest demand. Personally, I think that there are a lot of ill-informed people out there who, unfortunately, buy into all the Mac Myth Hype and are making decisions to switch major media operations from Avid's to FCP's. I can only hope and pray that Avid Marketing is acutely aware of this trend and will not make the mistakes of other big company's who have failed to adapt to competition...and let go of their protectionism policy and hone in on competing directly against FCP in the lower end price point....which is, of course, the future of editing.

    Personally, based on my experience, I would consider an editor without Avid experience to be a "low end" editor...perception wise. If I were a freelance editor though, I would probably be learning both FCP and Avid. Marketing is largely about perceptions...and Apple has always been acutely aware of this in their advertising. They started out by convincing the entire creative community that you had to have a Mac to use a mouse....lol...and these perceptions (Mac myths) continue to this day.

    [When my freelancer tells me that the Weather Channel has switched from Avid to FCP though, I can't help but think that the decisionmakers there are quite ill-informed...if not totally nuts. Wink [;)]]

    MC5, 17" Macbook Pro i7 with 8Gb Ram, 500gb 7200rpm drive. Suite 2. MC5, Dell Precision 650, 3.06 Ghz, Two internal SCSI drives, various external... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 7:50 PM In reply to

    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    Both Kent and Adman point out the "Mac Myth"...and this is something I've had to deal with quite often.  I use a PC for both editing and graphic design.  I have no reason to invest in Mac, particularly because most of the work I'm doing will be seen primarily on PCs.  However, there is a lot of external pressure to buy into the Mac mentality...that, for some arcane reason, Macs are "better" at graphic design.  No one ever really has a solid reason, though.

    Can anyone tell me solid reasons why Macs are "better" for graphic design and multimedia?  I'm dying to know...

    It's true that Apple has some excellent marketing...

    Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 2.66Ghz 3 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800 (2x1GB, 2x512MB;) XFX GeForce 8800GT 512MB 250 GB Seagate HD (System) 3x500 GB Western Digital... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 8:23 PM In reply to

    • vvp
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    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    Maybe Avid needs to develop an IPod of its own so that it can start producing the coolest television commercials that flood the masses of viewers.  Thats pretty much all Apple does, and phase one to the brainwashing is complete... brand awareness and a household name.
    MC Nitris DX v.5.0.2 HP Z800 * MC Nitris DX v.5.0.2 HP Z800 * MC v.5.0.2 HP Z800 * MC v.5.0.2 HP wx8400 [view my complete system specs]

    So my new wife asks me about my "Avid Forever" tattoo... I told her she's an old girlfriend who was always coming up with new things for me to try...

  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 8:25 PM In reply to

    • Adman
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    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    Back in the early days...I was working at an advertising agency. Prior to that I have managed a large graphic department with a zillion dollar typesetting machine called a Compugraphic Advantage Page Makeup System. It had could have several Compugraphic typesetting terminals networked to it. You had to enter codes in the computers to specify typesetting features such as fonts, leading, kerning, point size, etc. Then the Advantage system (huge (and hugely expensive) computer with color coded keyboard and "graphics tablet like" drawing surface allowed the operator to outline artwork and position the type around it. You would then print type "galleys" on a phototypesetting processor, which had to be kept in an airconditioned room and the chemicals had to be changed each day, etc.

    Back to the ad agency...I was studying marketing and computer science at GA State University, while employed there. I was also put in charge of purchasing a computer for media analysis for the agency. This system was an IBM PC with two floppy drives and a color monitor. It was around $30,000 including the software for analysis of Arbitron and Media ratings. So this was the agency's only computer and I was the only one who knew anything about how to use it. (everyone else was afraid of it lol). It also had Lotus 123, Dbase II and Multimate word processing.

    During this time, I was on the lookout for a way to do typesetting on a PC. The first effort in this regard, to my knowledge, was a company in Alexandria, VA that would allow you to send, via modem, your word processing files containing codes for font, leading, kerning, etc., which was very similar to what I was accustomed to. They would send back phototype galleys...for pasteups. It was cheap and high quality and gave you more control than the current workflow of spec'ing type and sending out to the local type shop.

    Then Pagemaker came out...and Ventura Publisher. Ventura on the PC and Pagemaker on the Mac (and then Windows version 1.) At the time, there were two GUI's competing for the PC market...Gem and Windows. Gem was faster but was monochrome. The colorful, but IMHO clumsy and archaic Windows won out. So I had both Windows and Gem on my computer...since Ventura Publisher would only run on Gem. As a professional typesetter and graphic artist, I much preferred Ventura Publisher as it had much better professional typesetting control (including tracking and kerning) than Pagemaker did.

    At the time, the business market was saturated with PC's equipped with the big three programs of the day...Lotus 123, dBase III and Word Perfect. But the creative community was not really being served...it was sort of the "last frontier" so to speak. Enter Apple and the Mac. The Mac shipped with a mouse. PC's DOS environment had not needed a mouse. In short, Apple developed a marketing campaign to target the creative community (which was not being served at all basically) directly and precisely. [The PC side did not have a "single entity" to pool its resources to do target marketing in this fashion really as the open architecture created a market of dozens of suppliers of PC hardware and software.]

    Apple exploited the creative community with the Mac and positioned it as the computer for the creatives...largely convincing the entire creative community that if you wanted to do "desktop publishing" (a term I have always hated) you had to have a Mac. Many people believed that Mac invented the mouse and of course, a mouse was required to use the Mac's new graphical interface. So, Apple's advertising targeted the creative community directly. Type houses went out of business and/or converted to "service bureaus" for printing out type on Linotronic phototype machines...from files submitted via Pagemaker or Ventura Publisher. The lion's share of these service bureau's were "Mac only." They were also courted by Apple and targed directly. Apple in short order, had exploited a previously untapped market and convinced the entire creative community (which typically knew nothing about computers in the first place) that the Mac was the only solution. This was hammered home and the brain washing was complete. Brilliant marketing. They also exploited a loophole in the architecture of the PC...the 256k internal memory limitation...later addressed by "extended memory." [the original PC developers didn't dream that there would be a need for more than 256k of memory in a personal computer.)

    I personally stuck with the PC.  I liked Ventura Publisher much better than Pagemaker...even though it was more difficult to find a service bureau that would accept PC files. Then CorelDRAW came out...it included a large collection of free fonts, which at the time had to be purchased individually. It also had very powerful controls in terms of typesetting.

    Anyway...got to go to a meeting...in short...the Mac had brainwashed the creative community and this incredibly successful marketing campaign(s) (the computer for the rest of us) is still apparent in today's market...especially in the creative community.

    ...to be continued.

    MC5, 17" Macbook Pro i7 with 8Gb Ram, 500gb 7200rpm drive. Suite 2. MC5, Dell Precision 650, 3.06 Ghz, Two internal SCSI drives, various external... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 8:27 PM In reply to

    • xyedit
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    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    Does anyone else find this ironic?



     
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  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 8:46 PM In reply to

    • vvp
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    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    So... there it is then.  Apple can take credit for the Baywatch slow-mo too! Wink [;)]
    MC Nitris DX v.5.0.2 HP Z800 * MC Nitris DX v.5.0.2 HP Z800 * MC v.5.0.2 HP Z800 * MC v.5.0.2 HP wx8400 [view my complete system specs]

    So my new wife asks me about my "Avid Forever" tattoo... I told her she's an old girlfriend who was always coming up with new things for me to try...

  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 9:52 PM In reply to

    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    Hey, Robert, I didn't know you were so *old.* Wink [;)]
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  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 10:34 PM In reply to

    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    Ok,

    Well being in film school we study the industry at great length and what the picture looks like from here is that...

    All of the major studios and networks are still cutting nearly all of their stuff on Avid. It is the "Industry Standard" however that is only if you are referring to the major motion picture industry and not the independent industry.

    The independent and middle of the road market, in terms of how much money they are spending on production are very much moving to FCP.

    So, my take on it is, I already know Avid (if it's possible to know Avid) and so I am going to buy a Mac whenever I save up the cash and learn FCP in my "spare" time.

    Operating the software is just like learning a language, some things carry over, some are different but the more languages you learn the easier it is to learn them. Or in our case, get paid for speaking them.

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  • Wed, Mar 1 2006 10:38 PM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
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    Re: No one seems to want Avid editors anymore..

    Not that this ever leads to a positive discussion but since you asked Steel, I'll tell you why my shops have always been mac based (though we do use and rent PC systems as well). One simple reason actually, the OS. There isn't a serious user of both platforms out there who will honestly say that any windows OS has been superior to a Mac OS. Stability, upgradability and anti-virus/spamware abilities have always gone to the Mac OS. Couple that with the ergonomics of moving between windows or drives or even applications and system software and it's all more flexible in a Mac OS environment. System repair/ Much easier on the Mac. I carry an entire bootable Mac OS on my iPod. Boot from the ipod, run system repair and diagnostics and I'm up and running again in minutes. Can't do that with my PC systems.

    When I'm running applications, it's just feeling for me. The Mac, for me, is more flexible in its relationship between windows/desktop/external drives. It is just easier to move between tasks for me. The PC will do the same things but in a much more roundabout way. Sharing files? With .mac accounts, I can access other users accounts anywhere in the world from my desktop just by typing in that person's account name. No additional software needed. That's basically it, APPLE has put a lot of good thought into making things easier for what we do on a daily basis. It's not that these same tasks can't be accompished on our PC, it just takes more work. I'm hoping that, when Bill's latest Mac OS copy comes out someday, that a lot of these issues will be resolved (Each windows release incorporates more Apple innovations) but right now XP isn't coming close to the flexibility and user-friendly enviornment that is OSX. When I'm cutting, I can't afford the increased downtime that is, inevitably a part of the windows OS.

    Bottom line, it's a personal choice. Some systems just feel better to work on than others for some people. Windows, for us, feels very industrial. The Mac, again, for us, just fits the creative environment we have here. It's not Brain-washing at all. Put the two systems together, try both and pick. We just picked the Mac.
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